BLP CARB SHOOTOUT Your input please !

[razor66]

Thanks Mike for posting this additional information as I think it is beneficial in a number of ways and look forward to seeing similar type info for the big block shootout.

[JoePorting]

I usually find that sticking linkage is caused by a warped carb pad on the manifold. If there was any welding done to the manifold, the carb pad should have been resurfaced. It only takes around .003" of warpage before carb linkage starts to stick.

[StanJ]

I think all those who entered the contest should be commended. They are at the top of the industry for a reason and they must be doing something right there to have the success they have. I can appreciate not releasing the results of the bottom of the field. There are those that would use those results that did not enter the contest to condemn them. As stated before, you can't really judge a company from one bad showing. Lots of variables involved here. From the accounts that I have heard, it appears that all entries came with the intent to learn from this contest and they all worked together to solve issues. I think that is pretty cool that they could put the competition with other vendors aside and work together. There are a lot of vendors that missed out on a great opportunity to improve there own programs.

Great post, Banjo; you're right on the money. It was interesting...and very gratifying...to see both sides of my fellow competitors during the shootout. As expected, the SB competition was a straight-up dogfight, with everyone tweaking everything they could in their carb to extract the last bit of power from them...while keeping their tune-up info fairly close-to-the-vest (and likewise respecting that of their competitors). It reminded me a lot of the last hour before the A-main at Eldora -- everybody in the first 10 rows is fast as hell, and the win will very likely be decided by some small detail that one crew takes care of and the others miss. I said before that the shootout was going to be a race for carb builders, and the SB portion of it was a great one.

The BB competition however, was a bit different...although not in any bad way. There was no questioning the power and durability of Steve Schmidt’s 622” -- 80+ pulls in excess of 1220 naturally-aspirated horsepower on a dyno known for "telling it like it is" says everything that needs to be said in that regard. But there was one aspect of the engine combination that -- when coupled with the specified testing parameters -- gave nearly everyone fits…and far more so than the SB portion of the competition, ended up testing the "straighten this out now" tuning abilities of not only each competitor individually, but in the end the entire group together. When all was said and done, pretty much every contestant’s toolbox, parts inventory, and most notably, the benefit of their experience and tuning expertise were open and available to everyone else. The fact that so many of the very best in the world at what they do were more than willing to check their egos at the door and work together says some pretty neat things about our industry, and I don’t mind saying here that I’m proud to be a part of it.

Now, for those here who just can’t move beyond their need to point at one of the shootout contestants and say “Ah ha! This guy finished last…what a loser! His stuff must be crap and I’ll never even consider trying it!”, here you go – both of Stallion Racing Components BB Shootout entries finished last. Actually, they didn’t compete. We “fouled out” lean on A/F ratio during the qualifying portion of the 2.130” TB shootout, and our “unlimited” 2.300 TB entry was very likely going to have the same problem for the same reason (a component flaw I discovered only yesterday). After throwing what should have been enough additional main and intermediate circuit fuel at it for two engines following our first OTB pull and seeing almost no change in lbs./hr, I elected to withdraw our entry before Tuesday’s final competition so as not to risk compromising the engine for the remaining shootout contestants. For me, the decision to do so was a no-brainer; too many other people had invested too much time and money onto this competition for me to risk ruining it for everyone involved. Regardless, a “Did Not Start” tonight is still a last place finish in tomorrow morning’s newspaper though, so yes…we finished at the bottom of the heap. I’d make the same call again in the same situation. So now that all the "B Hobby Class" fans here who just weren't going to be happy until they had someone to point at and say "Sheeeit!!!" finally have someone to laugh at, how about cutting Mike Laws and the rest of the Shootout organizers some slack? He kept his word, and none of us who know his dad ever expected anything different.

All in all though, the Carb Shootout was four days of the most fun I’ve had in a long time, and we’ll definitely be entering again next year. Mike Laws, Joe Hilerio, and the entire staff at BLP are first class folks and it showed in the smooth, fair, conscientious, and professional way the entire competition was run. It’s probably fair to say that the people who bad-mouthed the concept of the Shootout beforehand and elected not to participate have rarely been more wrong about anything. Really, really bad call, guys.

In short, we got our asses handed to us in the BB Shootout. That’s not something I’m used to and I didn’t like the feel of it. In concentrating on the oval-track market for the last couple of decades I’ve kind of lost touch with mainstream drag racing, even though our stuff set a handful of MPH and ET records and helped win a couple of national class championships in 2011. Well, enough of that. We’ll probably wear out a dyno or two and put a couple of racing fuel company exec’s kids through college this year getting caught back up, but we’ll be a lot better prepared next year.

[mbrooks]

i wondered what happened to you stan. better luck next time! i have one of your carbs and considering my limited experience and a few other make carbs sitting on the shelf, you guys make a very,very nice piece.

i think anybody willing to step up to the plate in this type contest shows good character and integrity. maybe everybody should have received 1st place and post all the results.

[Mike Laws]

My apologies for the delay in getting the b/b notes posted.

The b/b shootout had a little more drama than the s/b shootout – in large part due to the use of 8 individually placed O-2 sensors instead of the pair of collector mounted sensors used with the s/b engine. Both engine builders set a lean limit of 14.1:1 on the afr.

The 618 c.i. Steve Schmidt b/b engine produced more than 1200 hp and 950 ft-lbs of torque. It was also a wet sump and ran flawlessly. The Dart Box-ram manifold presented frustrating challenges to some of the teams and no issues for others. The procedure of the competition meant that David Vizard, Kevin Finney, Jeff & Dave from Schmidt’s and myself were the only people present in the control room for each team’s round. This provided a unique; real time perspective as some teams nailed the tune-up for the engine combination and others had a lot of work to do in a short amount of time. Due to a scoring oversight on our part during the 1st round; we decided to allow every team to compete in the final showdown to determine the winner, r/up and Elite-8. Many of the teams that struggled in the 1st round made huge improvements in the 2nd and the teams that were strong in the 1st round were equally strong in the final round. As everyone knows; AED and Braswell finished 1st & 2nd. The 3rd place team was very close to those two teams and there was a small gap to 4th through 8th. AED also won the OOTB side pot and if memory serves me correctly; I don’t think that Jay & Jeff from AED removed a fuel bowl during the b/b competition.

APD also ran well and won the 2.130” side-pot class over 2nd place KB Carburetion. The 2.130” class was very close from 1st – 8th and really throughout the field. (Approximately .04% variance.)

It was good to see that after the first round; many of the teams shared notes and parts in order to figure out the characteristics of the b/b engine.

In summary; the 14.1 limit was unpopular for a while; however once everyone realized that the limit was the same for everyone – it became business as usual. Had the s/b headers been equipped with O-2 sensor bungs; the same problems may have shown with it – or if only collector mounted O-2’s had been used with the b/b; there probably would have been no issue at all. We’ll never know for sure. In talking with several teams since the shootout; the importance of individual cylinder tuning has been turned up and all agree that the experience will improve their tuning process.

Mike

[jmarkaudio]

So now that it's all over, the big question, what's in store for the 2012 Challenge? Any companies looking to supply engines yet? 2 barrel? 4150 only?

[StanJ]

Personally, I'd really like to see the two "classes" from this year's competition left more or less as they were (it's hard to argue with their relevance to the current market), and simply add a "gauge legal" 500cfm 2brl class to it. It wouldn't be that much more work...


Mike...wait! Put the gun down! It was just a suggestion!

[Mike Laws]

So now that it's all over, the big question, what's in store for the 2012 Challenge? Any companies looking to supply engines yet? 2 barrel? 4150 only?

The 2012 shootout is in discussion. Lots of good ideas and options are on the table. I've been assured that engines will not be a problem. Working to have format/dates/rules/sponsors nailed down within 60 days. Stan & Mark: A 2-bbl option has been talked about but no decision has been made. Thanks.

Mike

[StanJ]

I've been thinking a bit more about the idea of a "gauge legal" 2-barrel class for the next Carb Shootout, and it occurred to me that there would be a unique aspect of such a competition above and beyond the obvious difference from this past year's basically "unlimited" concept. "Gauge legal" -- and the resulting inspection process to verify it -- would have to be defined in much greater detail that what we normally encounter at the tracks our customer's race at. The old subjective "Yeah, it hangs all of my gauges...and I can't point to anything specifically that's wrong with it...but I just don't think this carburetor looks right -- it's too...nice. You can't run it" situation that infuriates all of us who build these carbs couldn't be allowed to come up under any circumstances. The inspection process should be simple and clear, using readily available gauges (the set offered by BLP would be fine, since many tracks use them anyway), and be conducted in view of the other competitors, but without input or comments from them. All of us know what really goes into building a building a front-running gauge legal carb, and the shootout competitors would certainly represent the toughest group of "tech inspectors" ever assembled. I think the policy would almost have to be: If the gauges hang, you're golden...no ifs, ands, or buts.

[Dave Braswell]

I've been thinking a bit more about the idea of a "gauge legal" 2-barrel class for the next Carb Shootout, and it occurred to me that there would be a unique aspect of such a competition above and beyond the obvious difference from this past year's basically "unlimited" concept. "Gauge legal" -- and the resulting inspection process to verify it -- would have to be defined in much greater detail that what we normally encounter at the tracks our customer's race at. The old subjective "Yeah, it hangs all of my gauges...and I can't point to anything specifically that's wrong with it...but I just don't think this carburetor looks right -- it's too...nice. You can't run it" situation that infuriates all of us who build these carbs couldn't be allowed to come up under any circumstances. The inspection process should be simple and clear, using readily available gauges (the set offered by BLP would be fine, since many tracks use them anyway), and be conducted in view of the other competitors, but without input or comments from them. All of us know what really goes into building a building a front-running gauge legal carb, and the shootout competitors would certainly represent the toughest group of "tech inspectors" ever assembled. I think the policy would almost have to be: If the gauges hang, you're golden...no ifs, ands, or buts.

Stan, you are wanting to take a contest that is a run whatca brung, open competition for all manufacturers and narrowing the field to a specialised market that only one maunufacturers product can compete. There are enough licensed monopolies in motorsporsts as it is. They do nothing to reduce the cost of racing to the competitor or level the playing field. Their sole purpose is to exclude competition from what would be free market place, "restraint of trade" I belive is the formal phrase for it.

[Steve Zicht]

Has anybody come up with some cool ideas for this years Shoot Out ? How bout you Dave B. Thought about some interesting challenges to suggest to mike Laws ? SZ

[SchmidtMotorWorks]

Has anybody come up with some cool ideas for this years Shoot Out ? How bout you Dave B. Thought about some interesting challenges to suggest to mike Laws ? SZ

How about Carb/Manifold combination?

[StanJ]

Stan, you are wanting to take a contest that is a run whatca brung, open competition for all manufacturers and narrowing the field to a specialized market that only one manufacturers product can compete. There are enough licensed monopolies in motorsports as it is. They do nothing to reduce the cost of racing to the competitor or level the playing field. Their sole purpose is to exclude competition from what would be free market place, "restraint of trade" I believe is the formal phrase for it.

Not at all, Dave...or at least I'm not trying to. For better or worse (and I happen to agree with you that it's for the worst), short track racing racing as an industry in this country has already seen to that. I can count on one hand the number of sanctions in north America with 2brl classes that allow anything other than a Holley 500 or 350 2brl. My suggestions reflect my perception of the market as it actually is, not how I'd like for it to be. In a perfect world, tech inspection for all such 2brl classes would be purely spec-driven -- venturi and throttle bore diameter; maybe booster i.d. and o.d. Had 2brl racing evolved along those lines, I have no doubt that high quality, consistent, dedicated racing units would have been available from you, me, and likely several other companies for years now at lower cost than what we all have to charge for our Holley-based stuff under the current reality. In fact, the only folks who wouldn't have benefited from this would be Holley...who (rightly, I suppose) expect the protect...er, pardon me...consideration they currently receive from Nascar and other sanctions in return for the sponsorship and contingency dollars they spend.

I absolutely wouldn't want to change the "open" parts of the Shootout; that aspect of competition is not only the best way to test our individual abilities as carburetor builders, but also one of the strongest motivators for progress in this industry that I can think of. Still, for every Rocket/Mastersbuilt/Lefthander/GRT chassied, Cornett/Pro Power/Custom/Jay Dickens' powered, Featherlite trailered car out there, there are at least a few dozen other oval track racers who have not yet and/or for whatever reason will never move up to the late model or super-late class at their particular track. Those guys want to win, too, and I just see a gauge legal 2brl class as a way of making the next Carb Shootout meaningful for them also.

[jmarkaudio]

Has anybody come up with some cool ideas for this years Shoot Out ? How bout you Dave B. Thought about some interesting challenges to suggest to mike Laws ? SZ

How about Carb/Manifold combination?

Not sure I'm for it, it detracts from whether the best was due to the carb or the intake or the combination, and it's supposed to be a carb challenge. We have already seen the influence an intake manifold can have, just with a top change. Changing an intake adds a bit of changeover time as well as investment to the process, and it would have to be something that was easy to change, like an SB2 intake...

[SchmidtMotorWorks]

My thinking is that it might open up some difference in the results, as I understood it, there was not much difference near the top of the list.