BLP CARB SHOOTOUT Your input please !

[DrillDawg]

Drill Dawg, All these writers make money providing technical information that can be very valuable to readers in the form of publications. Thats how they make a living buddy ! David Vizard also makes money by hosting seminars and also gets paid to speak at them. ( as well as all the other hundreds of writers and speakers ) This shoot out is not specificaly organized to benefit him or anyone else that are guests.

I cant understand why your even bringing this subject up at all. The shoot out is specificly targeted at the most PR it can get. You think that anyone would attend the event if there was no media coverage at all ? If all the results were kept secret, nobody would enter either. SZ

Just to say.

[Rizzle]

I think all those who entered the contest should be commended. They are at the top of the industry for a reason and they must be doing something right there to have the success they have. I can appreciate not releasing the results of the bottom of the field. There are those that would use those results that did not enter the contest to condemn them. As stated before, you can't really judge a company from one bad showing. Lots of variables involved here. From the accounts that I have heard, it appears that all entries came with the intent to learn from this contest and they all worked together to solve issues. I think that is pretty cool that they could put the competition with other vendors aside and work together. There are a lot of vendors that missed out on a great opportunity to improve there own programs.

x2

well said, banjo

Yeroon

[banjo]

I don't know if this was decided once all the participants where there , but if this was the intention all along, that it would probably have been better to state how the results would be released before the competition. As it gives the conspiracy people a little more ammo to try and discredit the competition.

[F1Fever]

I can appreciate not releasing the results of the bottom of the field.

so can I but I really think the top 3 should have been shown on the podium ... what other podiums only show the top two..
this is especially so in the small block class. That was a Big inch sb making some pretty good steam. By not releasing the top 3 all the 4150 style carbs were virtually eliminated from placing.

the way the competition played out it was more of a 4500 shootout.... as the top 4 spots were claimed by 4500 style carbs. and even with the top 3 in each class posted it would still return only one 4150... which at this point it would really satisfy a lot of interest who held the top placing 4150....

IMO I cannot see anybody having ANY objection to releasing the 3rd spot in the SB class.... nor the BB class for that matter.

[MadBill]

X2! Surely no one could object to revealing at least the 'podium' results?

[Matt Gruber]

the contest was way too narrow.
my suggestion.
1. allow efi(give a set-up time limit, maybe 1 or 2 hrs?)
2. use chassis dynos
3. bring your cars, invite customers to bring cars, pick 3 to test at the event.
4. for carbs, out of the box, no tuning! Set idle speed and idle mixture and you are done.
5. Bring as many carbs as you like, pick 1 only for each car tested.
6. include drivability tests from idle up for stick shifts.
that would spice things up, with 3 different cars and NO TUNING with the carbs, it is likely to be very informative.

[kbcarbman]

First off I would like to congratulate the winners of the shootout. Mark whitener,AED,and APD you all did very well. Just being in the elite 8 is an honor with such great competitors in attendance.

I was going to post this in the 2012 thread , but it seems to be taking on a life of it's own(negative).
As far as scoring we were not given any results other than 1st and 2nd in the small block shootout,but the big block results were posted(pg. 49 on this thread I believe).It would have been nice to have a scoreboard for results like drag race qualifying,but everyone was so close in the elite 8 it would have been like pro stock qualifying.A lot of people seem to be worked up from not having all the numbers,but really they are just numbers! I agree with some that a little info on each entrants carb would be a plus,but the results were so close on both engines that the acceleration rate and a/f numbers etc.would have been some drab reading.

Speaking of numbers I was amazed by how close the power and acceleration #'s were on the big block,considering the wide range of carburetor sizes. I think that it boils down to the fact that some will work better with a clutch or a throttle stop, etc.On the small block (being a circle track engine) it would come down to track size and surface conditions to make a carburetor choice.

I didn't fare as well in the small block competition as I had hoped for as I under estimated the dyno a bit.The big block carburetor was the same for the open comp and the 2.130 side pot.I was very pleased with our results on the big block after seeing what some of the competiters brought to the shootout. I was quite happy to make the elite 8 in each shootout.It was quite amazing to see everyone competing against each other on the small block and working together to beat the big block!

A big thank you to all the folks at BLP,they put a lot of effort(and money) into this competition. Some things need to be tweaked but for the most part this competition came off very smoothly for a first time event.

Thanks again to Mike Laws and crew,David vizard, and all the competiters who had the guts to show up. I am already looking forward to next year and hope more carb shops step up to compete. Those who didn't missed a great event...KB

[Mike Laws]

The decision to declare only a winner & r/up for each shootout was made months ago, when talk first began about this contest. I take full responsibility for the concept of announcing only a winner & runner up along with the 6 teams that rounded out each Elite-8. This was done so that the winner & runner up’s would (rightly) stand out above the rest, the next 6 would be recognized as being very competitive and also as a gesture of respect for those who finished out of the top-8.

The Elite-8 concept was discussed with each team in the beginning and was well received by 100% of those who entered.

In looking back; I should have done a better job of informing those who would be watching the live feed and keeping up with the shootout concerning the Elite-8 concept. That was my mistake and I apologize. It was an oversight. We will evaluate this concept for next year.

Mike

[allblowdup]

If a guy builds the best carb in history but no one knows about it then does anyone care? I as a consumer am not interested in competitions that I only have access to sensored information. Good luck!

[blocker]

If a guy builds the best carb in history but no one knows about it then does anyone care? I as a consumer am not interested in competitions that I only have access to sensored information. Good luck!

Is reading not your strong point? I believe the winners were announced in each category...

[289nate]

It has already begun.

The only thing missing from that competition were a couple current major players and one guy who posts a lot on this site. You can't expect a better dyno and facilities than were provided. The engines held up fine it seems. The judge is a well known and respected individual. I don't see how it could have been any better for a first year competition. Next year should bring even more competition to the event.

I like the idea of the elite eight and only announcing the winner and runner up. It will get more people involved who are on the fence about participating. The difference between the top guys is just too small for anyone to say one builder will always reign supreme over all the others. Take the top eight from each category, change up the engines, and have the builders start from scratch. Does anybody think the placing will be exactly the same as it was? Way too close for me to think so. Probably anybody's a contender for the top spot at that point.

The only thing that would be neat to see is all the best pulls graphed over each other with no indication of who is who. I think that would show the average guy like me just how close most of the top notch guys are.

[allblowdup]

If a guy builds the best carb in history but no one knows about it then does anyone care? I as a consumer am not interested in competitions that I only have access to sensored information. Good luck!

Is reading not your strong point? I believe the winners were announced in each category...

Sure can but like I said not all the information was released. I like to find out as much info as i can. CArbs are just another mechanical piece and half of the interest is in the inovation that some of these guys can bring to the table. They may have not won but that doesn't mean there idea is bad.

[rookie]

I for one was hoping to see some #’s, especially the $800.00 Holley vs the $1100.00 AED, but I think based on the info given it would not be hard to figure out.

I do have to agree that the guys that put on the event and participate in it have the right to the rules, I thought the purpose was to see if these carb shops could provide the proper carb needed for a given engine and I think it was shown that they could, I was told that not only where the #’s very close but given more dyno time they would have been even closer.

I would have to say if anyone would like to change the rules they may want to sign up for next year’s shoot out so that your input will count.

[Robbie DeVane]

no surprise that Consumer Reports sends buyers out to buy random products and test them.
Those carbs tested are the best that the pros can build!
Not necessarily what joe average will get in the UPS box.
If a club charged dues, and that $$$ was used to buy carbs in secret, ...then you have a real test.
this was just a big advertisement
congrats to mark for beating the salesmen!

The only way to run a business is to always give the customers your very best part. Every carburetor does not allways work on every engine combination, but I always try to build the very best carburetor for the customer. I take a lot of pride in my work and pride means more than money.

www.devanecarbs.com

[Mike Laws]

Observations & Comments from the Shootout:

Both engines were outstanding.

S/B Shootout


When I spoke to Chad Mullins about the small block; I was a little worried that it was 430”, a wet sump, and he said to turn it from 4000 to 8500 rpm. We settled on 4200-8000 rpm for the competition. We made 87 runs over 2 days, no oil change, more than a drum of fuel used, the valve covers were never removed and absolutely no maintenance was done (as per Chad’s instructions.) The first full baseline/trendline run that we made on Saturday morning had an average acceleration rate of 632.5 rpm/sec. The final baseline/trendline run made on Sunday night had an acceleration rate of 632.6 rpm/sec. The highest was 635.1 and the lowest was 628.4. (Variance due to weather.)

The primaries had no provision for 0-2’s, so only the 2 collectors were used for afr’s. This made tuning on the s/b ‘more comfortable’ as the individual characteristics of each cylinder were not in play.

Neither of the Dominator carburetors were in the top-3 after the first round (ootb pull and 3 full pulls) of the s/b shootout. It was only after the run-off (1 short pull, 1 full pull) was voted in and completed that the Dominator entries of Mark Whitener and AED went on to the win and r/up.

Karsten from KB Carburetion made a spectacular recovery from his OOTB run. The VP oxygenated fuel specified by Chad Mullins proved to be challenging for some, particularly those with no experience running it. Karsten had arranged for a dyno session using the VP fuel on a similar engine prior to the shootout; but technical issues prevented the test. Rightly so; Karsten had the carb tune on the rich side; however it was VERY rich. “Shooting ducks” would be a kind description of his first pull. Karsten never hesitated though. He briefly studied the data (while mumbling something about oxygenated fuel) then went into the dyno cell & changed jets, air bleeds and who knows what else. Karsten then came back into the control room and said; “let’s go”. Having made a safe but slow ootb run; this would now be a full pull. The engine sounded like someone uncrossed several plug wires and Karsten’s score immediately improved. He made some minor changes from there to a very competitive finish.

There was another behind the scenes moment that is worth mentioning. Robbie DeVane entered the s/b shootout only and spent a lot of time on his 4150 entry prior to the contest. Robbie’s runs (made on Saturday) were less than spectacular and there was also a linkage-problem on his carb during his runs. His performance did not get him into the Elite-8 on Sunday; however after his runs on Saturday; Robbie drove back to his shop about 60 miles away in order to diagnose and fix the problem. He showed back up on Sunday (with his carburetor) to watch the finals. After the final baseline run was made; Robbie asked if we would mind bolting his carb to the manifold to see if the binding issue could be replicated and perhaps make 1 run. [Note: The linkage worked fine when opened & closed by hand; however when the cable and mount were secured; the throttle would bind up.] We fiddled with it for a few minutes and worked out a way for the throttle to work as it should. We were actually ahead of schedule; so we granted Robbie’s request for 1 run that was off the record. His run would have easily made the Elite-8 and was very, very strong. Robbie was happy about the run but upset about the linkage issues. His wife, Nikki was the happiest in the house though and cannot wait for next year’s shootout.

As mentioned before; the s/b shootout was highly competitive. The lead changed hands often; however due to the trendline scoring – no one knew the results until after the final baseline run on Sunday night.

A few numbers to ponder that are not trendline-corrected:

Time difference from 1-8 after the 1st round = .055 seconds.
Time difference from 1-8 after the run-off = .083 seconds.

Average e.t. per run = approximately 6.5 seconds.

B/B shootout notes will follow...

Mike