Professional attitude

mike walsh · Post by **mike walsh** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 4:27 pm

OK pro's, I have had it with ignorant customers!!! I did a valve job on a DOHC and the customer noticed the "CAMS NOT TIMED," tag. Told me that real machine shops "time" cams with out the lower end. In fact he insisted we do the job right, I held my ground and insisted he needed the correct tools and the rest of the motor to time them.
So how do the rest of you deal with this???

ap72 · Post by **ap72** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 4:51 pm

how in the hell do you set the cams timing when the head is off the short block? I really need to learn this trick.

needforspeed66gt · Post by **needforspeed66gt** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 4:56 pm

Ignorance is hard to deal with, thankfully I have not been told that one yet as I always give back heads "un-timed"

Worst one I got years ago was some Honda dealership's new "lead tech" called up to our shop to complain that a head they got back wasn't de-burred around the chambers. I was confused as I always debur the chamber edge after surfacing along with the whole outside edge of the head. I drove down to the dealership and was confronted by their lead tech who proceeded to tell me in a loud voice in front of all the other techs that I needed to de-burr the chamber edge or else it would fire-slot a groove to the outside of the head in no time.

I bit my tongue rather than telling everyone that the de-burr was a courtesy job so people don't cut their fingers on the sharp aluminum because none of those heads have a de-burred edge from the factory. It pissed me off at the time, but I figured that idiot wouldn't last long there and didn't want to compromise a good account just because I wanted to put the guy in his place.

needforspeed66gt · Post by **needforspeed66gt** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 4:58 pm

ap72 wrote:how in the hell do you set the cams timing when the head is off the short block? I really need to learn this trick.

With a really short timing belt

Keith Morganstein · Post by **Keith Morganstein** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 5:24 pm

mike walsh wrote:OK pro's, I have had it with ignorant customers!!! I did a valve job on a DOHC and the customer noticed the "CAMS NOT TIMED," tag. Told me that real machine shops "time" cams with out the lower end. In fact he insisted we do the job right, I held my ground and insisted he needed the correct tools and the rest of the motor to time them.
So how do the rest of you deal with this???

So he wanted the cams in the position that they would be when timed properly?

I try to ship with cams in position so most or all the valves are closed to prevent damage.

OTOH, heads like the 1.8T VW need to be timed on the bench (cams to each other).

machine shop tom · Post by **machine shop tom** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 5:27 pm

I've had guys bring in heads and say "Don't move the cam (s), I pulled the head but didn't put the engine on TDC #1."

Sheesh.

tom

Masher Manufacturing · Wed Dec 16, 2009 6:43 pm

I'd tell the guy to provide me with a factory procedure ( not a internet print out ) then read / do it in front of him.

However, if the head has cams that are interconnected with a gear or chain, then another chain / belt goes to the crank, the intake and exhaust cams need to be in time. ( Nothing you probably don't do already )

Some engines don't have a key between the cam wheel and cam nose, ( Ford Zetek ) these need to have the cams locked , belt installed and crank to proper position.

It would help to know what type of motor is causing the problem.

mike walsh · Post by **mike walsh** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:07 pm

My bad, I didn't think about needing to know which head, a Mitsibishi Lancer head, but sadly i don't remember the exact designation right now.

I want to thank you all for the replies, I am in the "dirty south," and seem to get alot of backwards shade tree mechanic types. I have heard the "cams timed," about 4.6 motors(ford) and about all other overhead cams. My last employer, god bless him, actually wanted me to mark every cam posistion and replace them in the same spot. I did it but in the same breath, it was the tipping point at which I started looking at new employment.

gn69z28 · Post by **gn69z28** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:19 pm

I have had a few people bring me small block chevy heads and ask if I could adjust there valves while I had them so they wouldnt have to adjust them when they put the heads back on..

SWR · Post by **SWR** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:40 pm

machine shop tom wrote:I've had guys bring in heads and say "Don't move the cam (s), I pulled the head but didn't put the engine on TDC #1."

Sheesh.

tom

I had that on a V6...

needforspeed66gt · Post by **needforspeed66gt** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:53 pm

Masher Manufacturing wrote: However, if the head has cams that are interconnected with a gear or chain, then another chain / belt goes to the crank, the intake and exhaust cams need to be in time. ( Nothing you probably don't do already )

Yep - there's a lot of those, I would assume he's not in that situation though because in that case I would agree with the complaint.

A good example with an extra wrench thrown in would be the Toyota 5SFE head with a gear mesh between the cams, one of them has a spring in the gear assembly that needs to be locked in place with a bolt before removal so that there is pre-load between the gears.

cjperformance · Post by **cjperformance** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 10:21 pm

You need to kindly advise the customer that you only carry out any basic set up relevent to the 'partial repair' service that you have provided., and that you do not set something up which can be disturbed between the part leaving you and the part being fitted, as the responsibility for correct final set up is up to the 'fitter'.

By tagging and making a point of mentioning that the cams are not set is totally correct on your part.

Stand your ground on this, as, If you start sending stuff out with cams set, or whatever it may be, this leaves it open for a customer to blame you when the cam chain is set incorrectly by the fitter.!

The customer is not always right, he/she may 'think' they are, but often they need you, as their responsible service agent to accuratly and honestly fill in the blanks so that they can correct their decision and become properly informed. In the end, they will appreciate you for this. If they dont, its their misfortune.

BTW, do you have any 'pre torqued' head bolts in stock.??!!

robert1 · Post by **robert1** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 10:44 pm

Years ago when I had my shop I built a 302 Ford for a shop next door to me. A few weeks later the guy has the car back, the paint is burnt almost completely off of the heads and a large black arc going down each side of the block. Then this moron comes in my shop, no shirt on of course, complaining about the motor quiting and leaving them on the side of the road where they were picked up and he was arrested for DUI. Needless to say this conversation got very heated. I did fix the motor for the shop next door as they bought several engines and did not want to contend with this dummy.

ProPower engines · Post by **ProPower engines** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:42 am

WE have only one rule concerning OHC head work.
If the customer wants a head repair they must remove the cam shaft/s and related valve train components before cleaning.
If they choose not to we do a flat rate charge of 1hr@60$ and shop rate @85$per hr to reinstall the valve train parts and set/check the lash after the head is repaired.
I have only one shop that pays everyone else takes their stuff apart.

crazyman · Post by **crazyman** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 3:01 am

Well, think of this. Not all mechanics can think beyond the book. Some mechanics don't know squat about how an engine works. 1 higher paid guy at the Deere dealership I worked at actually asked me how points worked. I, making $10 less an hour, had to explain it to him. I bit my tongue and told him. I should have taught him about the spark fairy.

Don Terrill’s Speed-Talk

Professional attitude

Professional attitude

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