NO! China made Seat and guide knockoff

Open

Moderator: Team

machine shop tom
Guru
Guru
Posts: 2401
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2005 10:16 pm
Location: N L Michigan

Post by machine shop tom » Mon Nov 09, 2009 2:41 pm

proengines wrote:A little off topic but has anyone ever seen an IDL CNC seat/guide machine?


I've seen the IDL's that look like a retarded drill press but never a cnc one. There are some advertised for sale at a machinery dealer here, I'm just interested to know what they are like?

Cheers,
Greg
Didn't IDL go out of business before the CNC thing got legs?

tom
Pray for a secular future.

MSNBC's catch phrase is "Lean Forward". Shouldn't it be "Bend Over"?

Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

User avatar
Dave Koehler
Guru
Guru
Posts: 3407
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 11:19 pm
Location: Urbana, IL USA
Contact:

Post by Dave Koehler » Mon Nov 09, 2009 3:14 pm

I saw one of these on Ebay a while back. I don't think it was a true CNC machine. Might have been and early NC but from the looks of it, it may have been a mechanical copier. IE, it was built for a mass production rebuilder doing the same head over and over.
Dave Koehler - Koehler Injection
Fuel Injection - Nitrous Charger - Balancing - Nitrous Master software
http://www.koehlerinjection.com
"Never let a race car know that you are in a hurry."

proengines
Member
Member
Posts: 124
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 5:50 am
Location: Queanbeyan, Australia
Contact:

Post by proengines » Mon Nov 09, 2009 4:14 pm

That would make sense, it didn't look terribly versatile fixture-wise.

KnightEngines
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1794
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:51 pm
Location: Australia

Post by KnightEngines » Mon Nov 09, 2009 4:56 pm

Hell, that seat & guide machine looks ok.

I'm in the same boat as Greg (proengines), I use my old RVR, it's a good old machine, mine is updated with ball drive tooling etc, but it really needs a proper rollover fixture rather than it's tilting bed & could use a speed controller to drop spindle speed for larger seats (chatters a bit on bigger seats).
The time & $ I'd spend to get it up to where I want it may be better spent on a new machine.

If I was to sell it I'd be 1/2 way to the cost of the chinese machine, if they are decent it's not a hard decision.

Being a 1 man show I cannot possibly justify the cost of a new 'brand name' machine, even a good second hand VGS20 is worth extortion money over here. I'd definately look at the chinese machine as a option.
A lot of machines or at least components of them are made in china anyway, may as well face facts & just buy the whole thing there without paying the brand name mark up for much the same thing.

Greg - wonder if they knock a bit more off the cost for 2 machines!

proengines
Member
Member
Posts: 124
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 5:50 am
Location: Queanbeyan, Australia
Contact:

Post by proengines » Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:12 pm

Good question Tony, I might have to check and see. If someone else bought one as well and they were no good at least I'd have someone to cry into my beer with.

I've been looking for a good used Serdi 3.0 but they are like hens teeth and still in the mid 30's used. I love my little serdi, it cuts a beautiful seat but thats all it does.

I suppose the other option is a good rollover fixture for the RVR's, one of the T&S or Sunnen style ones would be the go. I already have a vfd for it, just need to wire it up. Maybe one of the T&S level setups as well.

KnightEngines
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1794
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:51 pm
Location: Australia

Post by KnightEngines » Mon Nov 09, 2009 6:14 pm

I got a price on a sunnen rollover jig a while back - it was something like $4k.

F**k that!

If I had the time I'd make one, but sadly....

The last VGS20 I saw for sale was asking something like $35k.

Go on, make a rollover for your RVR, & make another while you're at it! - they'd be pretty damn close to a VGS20 with a rollover & speed controller, just lock the bed up solid, throw away the original parallels & bolt the rollover fixture on some risers direct to the bed.

One of those sunnen style digital levels to set up & you'd be away with a real nice machine for 1/4 the cost of a SH sunnen.

ProPower engines
Guru
Guru
Posts: 7017
Joined: Sun Jan 21, 2007 1:16 pm
Location: VICTORIA BC CANADA

Post by ProPower engines » Mon Nov 09, 2009 9:25 pm

This for the guys in aus-land :D
Whoever you guys have been dealing with there should be shot.
I bought a new vgs20 in 2007 and paid 18,000CDN for it fob my shop.
Taxes in delivered With std tooling.
If you are serious there is some deals to be had here in canada.

I have seen lots of them with tooling packages for 12000-20000US but transport to Oz must be 1500 on the boat from here.
I know of 2 machines currently available for 1/2 of what you have been quoted

PM Me and I can give you the contact details
Real Race Cars Don't Have Doors

proengines
Member
Member
Posts: 124
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 5:50 am
Location: Queanbeyan, Australia
Contact:

Post by proengines » Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:04 am

After a bit more thinking, maybe it is time to make some rollover fixtures because the RVR is really very similar to a Sunnen apart from that. T&S has the digital levels on ebay for $600. For anyone who has no idea what I'm talking about, this is a picture of the Repco machine below:
Image

KnightEngines
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1794
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:51 pm
Location: Australia

Post by KnightEngines » Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:30 am

If you do it I'll buy one & you could probably sell them to heaps of little guys running the RVR's - ie. literally dozens of us.

Guys like me will 100% jump at the chance to have a machine that does pretty much anything a sunnen will do at a fraction of the cost with a simple update to their existing machine.

raceman14
Expert
Expert
Posts: 665
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 11:41 am
Location: GA
Contact:

Post by raceman14 » Tue Nov 10, 2009 1:52 am

I hope the buyers of the Chinese knock offs have better luck than Serdi customers had because the motor in spindle idea is like cutting seats with a dull jacknife. I have never seen one cut seats without chatter and certainly not round.

Whoever took them a machine took them the wrong one, oh well I guess there is some positive Zen in this world.

BTW, The Repco was the original machine Pierre Harmand looked at when he was designing the Serdi 100. It incorporated the heavy structure and spindle assembly with a air floated sphere assembly from an orbital seat and guide finisher.

As far as the IDL CNC, the made a few of them and there as still a couple Robots running in Canada at a VW plant that manufactures many of the TDI heads, and gas heads for VW North America. They are a pretty cool machine but prone to significant wear if not maintained properly.

I am hoping to have a roll-over fixture ready in about 6 months as I have seen the need for many of my customer with fixed base machines. Won't be cheap but should be less than a Newen.

Pro Engines,
PM me if you want an awesome 3.0 in like new condition only used by Grandma-ma. It is really a slick piece as I just serviced it and might take it on trade. Owner just spent about $5k getting it updated, you can pm me or e-mail me if you're interested.
More is always better!!! Most of the time.

Shortcut
New Member
New Member
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:34 am

Re: NO! China made Seat and guide knockoff

Post by Shortcut » Thu May 04, 2017 3:12 am

anybody using one the chinese valve seat guide machines???? - especially the Serdi knock-off - whats it work like - comment plz - thats about the max I can afford - theres also a copy of the Vgs20 going for $6600 - but??hmmmmm - anybody got one - whats it work like?

3rdcoastpowersports
New Member
New Member
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:03 pm

Re: NO! China made Seat and guide knockoff

Post by 3rdcoastpowersports » Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:34 pm

Im with above. Anyone with any feedback at all about the china serdi's.
My honest opinion is Serdi is buying the machine from china then adding some paint, serdi stickers and swapping out a gauge here and there. I would not be suprised one bit to learn the china serdi is not a knock off at all but the base stock for the real deal.
Its a tempting option for sure especially since a new serdi 4.5 is something like $65k shipped thats not with the badass rollover fixture (i think serdi wants something like $6k for just the roll over fixture). Not to mention in my opinion Serdi is a shit company with assholes and greedy money men in the wheel hose. A half ass broken international company is how I would describe the modern Serdi corp. I would rather give $30k to a chinamen than to a fat american asshole (or french dickhead, take your pick).
Im very tempted to call the manufacutre and setup a sitdown demo in china to see what its all about. If I do the math correctly thats around 3k for a round trip ticket. Lets be crazy generous and say $1k in bs expenses on the trip and then if I like the machine $30k shipped back to the states (including the badass rollover fixture), $5k in import tax.... Im all in for a hair under $40k vs $65k plus...

I just have a really hard time understanding what about a serdi is worth 65k besides the current heavily inflated market value. Seriously I just dont see a glorified air float drill press costing 65k unless it just is that much because it can be.

In-Tech
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1592
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 4:35 am

Re: NO! China made Seat and guide knockoff

Post by In-Tech » Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:03 am

3rdcoastpowersports wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:34 pm
Im with above. Anyone with any feedback at all about the china serdi's.
My honest opinion is Serdi is buying the machine from china then adding some paint, serdi stickers and swapping out a gauge here and there. I would not be suprised one bit to learn the china serdi is not a knock off at all but the base stock for the real deal.
Its a tempting option for sure especially since a new serdi 4.5 is something like $65k shipped thats not with the badass rollover fixture (i think serdi wants something like $6k for just the roll over fixture). Not to mention in my opinion Serdi is a shit company with assholes and greedy money men in the wheel hose. A half ass broken international company is how I would describe the modern Serdi corp. I would rather give $30k to a chinamen than to a fat american asshole (or french dickhead, take your pick).
Im very tempted to call the manufacutre and setup a sitdown demo in china to see what its all about. If I do the math correctly thats around 3k for a round trip ticket. Lets be crazy generous and say $1k in bs expenses on the trip and then if I like the machine $30k shipped back to the states (including the badass rollover fixture), $5k in import tax.... Im all in for a hair under $40k vs $65k plus...

I just have a really hard time understanding what about a serdi is worth 65k besides the current heavily inflated market value. Seriously I just dont see a glorified air float drill press costing 65k unless it just is that much because it can be.
Broken record. If you have good equipment to compare AND the ability to use it, go on and compare. Otherwise you're a rant idiot. It's a machine fuckstick, you either learn it or adapt. Is the machine teaching YOU how stupid you are? Fack, this should be in the political area. :mrgreen:
Heat is energy, energy is horsepower...but you gotta control the heat.
-Carl

3rdcoastpowersports
New Member
New Member
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:03 pm

Re: NO! China made Seat and guide knockoff

Post by 3rdcoastpowersports » Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:11 am

In-Tech wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:03 am
3rdcoastpowersports wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:34 pm
Im with above. Anyone with any feedback at all about the china serdi's.
My honest opinion is Serdi is buying the machine from china then adding some paint, serdi stickers and swapping out a gauge here and there. I would not be suprised one bit to learn the china serdi is not a knock off at all but the base stock for the real deal.
Its a tempting option for sure especially since a new serdi 4.5 is something like $65k shipped thats not with the badass rollover fixture (i think serdi wants something like $6k for just the roll over fixture). Not to mention in my opinion Serdi is a shit company with assholes and greedy money men in the wheel hose. A half ass broken international company is how I would describe the modern Serdi corp. I would rather give $30k to a chinamen than to a fat american asshole (or french dickhead, take your pick).
Im very tempted to call the manufacutre and setup a sitdown demo in china to see what its all about. If I do the math correctly thats around 3k for a round trip ticket. Lets be crazy generous and say $1k in bs expenses on the trip and then if I like the machine $30k shipped back to the states (including the badass rollover fixture), $5k in import tax.... Im all in for a hair under $40k vs $65k plus...

I just have a really hard time understanding what about a serdi is worth 65k besides the current heavily inflated market value. Seriously I just dont see a glorified air float drill press costing 65k unless it just is that much because it can be.
Broken record. If you have good equipment to compare AND the ability to use it, go on and compare. Otherwise you're a rant idiot. It's a machine fuckstick, you either learn it or adapt. Is the machine teaching YOU how stupid you are? Fack, this should be in the political area. :mrgreen:
Wow carl i didnt understand a word you wrote. Your sentence format is shit.
Not sure what u didnt understand about my post but then again i couldnt understand yours at all.
Fly to china bring my tools and compair to what i know and the 2 serdis I own (own 2 production type shops).
Try to restructure your sentance format so anyone who isnt from the back woods of west virginia can communicate with you.

Frankshaft
Expert
Expert
Posts: 622
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2015 6:01 pm

Re: NO! China made Seat and guide knockoff

Post by Frankshaft » Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:17 am

I demoed a vt-60/pheonex vsga 20-20 at Pri 2 years ago. What a pile of shit. Had 3 issues in the 10 minutes I played with it. The guy there representing them, is a local equipment rep I know, and he was HAMMERING me to buy one. I said, Dick, I am the one that told you about these, remember? They are $7995 on ali baba. Now they are $22,000? Fyi, he quit selling them shortly after he started. They were a MAJOR source of headache for him. The import machine that looks really sweet, is made in India. Micronin Vsg 6a or something like that. He was selling them too, but took on the pheonex line because there was more margin. But of course at the time, its the best machine since sliced bread. There is some marketing videos on youtube for both machines actually.

Post Reply