more chinese ------

[Engguy]

What the hell? Now, Boeing says they want to move all design and manufacturing to China! Are we ever going to wake up?

Yeah the land of the poisoned pet food, and low grade fasteners, will soon be the major hub of aircraft manufacture. How many low grade fasteners will they use on those jet liners?

[Mark R]

Boeing has had major sub-assemblies manufactored in China for more then 20 years that I know of. They started with MD-80 & 90 horizontal stabilizers and nose sections, of course then it was McDonnell-Douglas. Boeing in Seattle was doing the same thing, touting the "Global Economy", and "No way will we ever lose jobs in the US due to this", yea right, just compare employment levels of the aircraft industry in the late 80's- early 90's to today. My good friend just got laid off after 24 years with Boeing, he can thank the union for that. By that I mean, if the lay-off's weren't senority based and instead based on worker productivity he would still have a job, instead he's out the door while a bunch of useless dirt bags are still collecting a pay check.

[bubbabbc]

What do you think will happen to any nation that pays 40 million people not to work?

[enigma57]

Well tomorrow I leave for China. I intend to visit a number of manufacturing plants and other businesses to observe their operational systems, product quality, work procedures, compensation, and standard of living.

Meanwhile, perhaps someone ought to ask their Congressman why jobs are leaving our shores. Very often funded by American companies.

Can we outsource our politicians? Cheap?

That should be interesting, David. Please post your findings and impressions on your return. In communist China, your itinerary will be restricted to what they wish you to see and I would expect that you will be under constant surveillance as well. It will be hard to get a true picture of conditions there. Most foreigners on such junkets are given the (guided and accompanied) VIP tour.

I call it the 'Theresienstadt tour' because the Nazis had a section of the concentration camp there reserved as a 'showcase' area to show how 'kind' they were to the Jews interned there and there were concert performances by prisoners to show how much they 'appreciated their musical talents'. Of course, the showcase area was merely for propaganda and PR value and wasn't an accurate representation of life in the work camps and the death camps at all. But it served them well until Allied troops began liberating those camps and uncovering the horrors behind their gates and electrified fences in the final months of the war.

Best regards,

Harry

[Warpspeed]

Harry, what about the entertainment offered by Americans to foreigners at Gitmo and Abu Gharib and other US run torture prisons around the globe ?

And the 1.5 million Iraqi civilians the US military have now murdered are just as dead. And what was their crime exactly ?

[af2]

Tony, come on man.
Every chance you get you throw a jab at us Americans??
What is torture in you're mindset?

Just not right you keep hammering home you're B.S.

People die in war. It hasn't changed since day 1.

[1989TransAm]

"And the 1.5 million Iraqi civilians the US military have now murdered are just as dead. And what was their crime exactly "

There are some real sicko's in this world. So Tony what is your proof about the number and that in fact they were murdered?

[Warpspeed]

"And the 1.5 million Iraqi civilians the US military have now murdered are just as dead. And what was their crime exactly "

There are some real sicko's in this world. So Tony what is your proof about the number and that in fact they were murdered?

They were once alive and are now dead, killed by the American military.
That fact is beyond dispute.

As to the exact number, those range from 1.3 million to 1.5 million plus.
I guess we will never know for sure.

What I would like you to explain to me then, is why the US invaded and occupied Iraq in the first place.
What is the exact reason for this invasion and occupation, and what is the final military objective in Iraq ?

If you cannot give an answer, why is that ?

How can a war that has no objective or final goal ever be won ?

How can a whole nation that cannot even give a reason for fighting a war allow it to continue ?

[1989TransAm]

"They were once alive and are now dead, killed by the American military.
That fact is beyond dispute."

So the only way they died was at the hands of the US Military. That is just not rational thought even by following the daily newscast of events. By the way the number that died were far less than what you are reporting.

"What I would like you to explain to me then, is why the US invaded and occupied Iraq in the first place.
What is the exact reason for this invasion and occupation, and what is the final military objective in Iraq ?"

Do you want to start with the two UN resolutions? The final objective is for Iraq to have a government of their choosing. That is why they are having real elections and not the fake ones by Saddam. The populace of Iraq will decide their form of government.

You are so far out in left field that you do not have a clue as to what is really going on. You must get all your news from the BBC.

[Warpspeed]

[quote="1

So the only way they died was at the hands of the US Military. [/quote]

Yes.
The US military are not just firing into the air over there, they are KILLING PEOPLE. That is what invading armies do.

.

Do you want to start with the two UN resolutions? The final objective is for Iraq to have a government of their choosing.

The UN had nothing at all to do with America' illegal invasion of Iraq.

Gulf War One WAS a proper legal UN military action, where fifty nations voted to boot Saddam out of Kuwait. Fifty nations took part in that operation.
There was a reason, and a definite military objective. Once that had been achieved Desert Storm ended, and apart from the blockade around Iraq to prevent rearming, everyone then went home..

Gulf War Two was definitely not sanctioned by the UN and never has been.
It was an illegal US invasion (supported only by Britain). None of the other forty eight UN nations took part, as the would have if it had been a UN action.

Make no mistake, Bush lied.
Every intelligence agency on the planet, (including the CIA) knew full well Saddam had no weapons of mass destruction.
Bush lied, and the whole world knew that at the time.

The American public were lied to, and kept in the dark by the American media. I am astonished that after six years of warfare some Americans still believe the weapons of mass destruction lie.

No the UN has not sanctioned the War in Iraq, and never will.

America is now there all alone losing that war with no allies left now that Britain has deserted you..

You are dead wrong about Gulf War Two being based on any combined UN resolution. If it were, where are all the other UN nations fighting in Iraq ?

[1989TransAm]

Here is a link explaining the UN resolutions.

http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:NV ... clnk&gl=us

So according to you the US Military was behind all the car bombs, suicide bombers, roadside bombs, ambushes, tribal fighting, foreign jihadist, Saddam supporters and the list could go on of those killing Iraqi citizens.

"Every intelligence agency on the planet, (including the CIA) knew full well Saddam had no weapons of mass destruction.
Bush lied, and the whole world knew that at the time."

There is so much bs in this statement. How about the 500 tons of yellow cake that was shipped to Canada? How about the over 500 warheads with chemical weapons that were found. Please read the above UN resolution link.

You are truly out in left field.

[Warpspeed]

Yes I read that resolution.

It was dated in 2002 and applied to the events leading up to and subsequent to GULF WAR ONE.

Nowhere in that link you gave does it say the UN voted to invade Iraq a SECOND TIME. Although that is what George W Bush wanted, a vote to that effect was never passed. The UN only authorised sanctions and weapons inspectors, and a blockade of Iraq.

All the evidence pointed to the fact that Saddam did once have weapons of mass destruction, but they had either been destroyed, or were no longer effective as a serious weapons. Times change, and the biological weaponry originally supplied to Iraq BY AMERICA during the much earlier Iraq/Iran war were no longer effective.Likewise Saddam tried all ways to get weapons and buy weapons technology from overseas, but failed to do so.

The illegal US invasion of Iraq (Gulf War Two) only began in early 2003. That was long after Gulf War One had completely ended.

Please try to understand there have been two completely separate wars in Iraq that have little or no connection with each other.

Gulf war one involved fifty nations. It was fully sanctioned by the UN.
It was swift and very effective.

Gulf war two involved only the US and Britain. It was a completely illegal invasion not authorised by the UN.
It has been a total disaster in every respect that has dragged on for six long and bloody years with no end in sight.

The Iraqis are only attacking American (and previously British) troops that have illegally invaded and occupied their country.

Americans would do exactly the same if a foreign army invaded the US.

[1989TransAm]

"Gulf war two involved only the US and Britain"

Come now. Do you really believe this?

Facts and events to do not support your other statements.

[enigma57]

Tony, this is entirely off topic, but as you addressed your initial comments regarding this subject to myself here on Mark's thread about Chinese import parts, I will be happy to respond so long as its OK with Mark......

RE: Your comments......

To myself......

Harry, what about the entertainment offered by Americans to foreigners at Gitmo and Abu Gharib and other US run torture prisons around the globe ?

And the 1.5 million Iraqi civilians the US military have now murdered are just as dead. And what was their crime exactly ?

To TransAm......

The US military are not just firing into the air over there, they are KILLING PEOPLE. That is what invading armies do.

.

Do you want to start with the two UN resolutions? The final objective is for Iraq to have a government of their choosing.

The UN had nothing at all to do with America' illegal invasion of Iraq.

Gulf War One WAS a proper legal UN military action, where fifty nations voted to boot Saddam out of Kuwait. Fifty nations took part in that operation.
There was a reason, and a definite military objective. Once that had been achieved Desert Storm ended, and apart from the blockade around Iraq to prevent rearming, everyone then went home..

Gulf War Two was definitely not sanctioned by the UN and never has been.
It was an illegal US invasion (supported only by Britain). None of the other forty eight UN nations took part, as the would have if it had been a UN action.

Make no mistake, Bush lied.
Every intelligence agency on the planet, (including the CIA) knew full well Saddam had no weapons of mass destruction.
Bush lied, and the whole world knew that at the time.

The American public were lied to, and kept in the dark by the American media. I am astonished that after six years of warfare some Americans still believe the weapons of mass destruction lie.

No the UN has not sanctioned the War in Iraq, and never will.

America is now there all alone losing that war with no allies left now that Britain has deserted you..

You are dead wrong about Gulf War Two being based on any combined UN resolution. If it were, where are all the other UN nations fighting in Iraq ?

To TransAm......

Yes I read that resolution.

It was dated in 2002 and applied to the events leading up to and subsequent to GULF WAR ONE.

Nowhere in that link you gave does it say the UN voted to invade Iraq a SECOND TIME. Although that is what George W Bush wanted, a vote to that effect was never passed. The UN only authorised sanctions and weapons inspectors, and a blockade of Iraq.

All the evidence pointed to the fact that Saddam did once have weapons of mass destruction, but they had either been destroyed, or were no longer effective as a serious weapons. Times change, and the biological weaponry originally supplied to Iraq BY AMERICA during the much earlier Iraq/Iran war were no longer effective.Likewise Saddam tried all ways to get weapons and buy weapons technology from overseas, but failed to do so.

The illegal US invasion of Iraq (Gulf War Two) only began in early 2003. That was long after Gulf War One had completely ended.

Please try to understand there have been two completely separate wars in Iraq that have little or no connection with each other.

Gulf war one involved fifty nations. It was fully sanctioned by the UN.
It was swift and very effective.

Gulf war two involved only the US and Britain. It was a completely illegal invasion not authorised by the UN.
It has been a total disaster in every respect that has dragged on for six long and bloody years with no end in sight.

The Iraqis are only attacking American (and previously British) troops that have illegally invaded and occupied their country.

Americans would do exactly the same if a foreign army invaded the US.

Tony, with all due respect......

1. America is a sovereign nation. We do not require UN approval to defend ourselves against attack...... As you allege. Even preemptorily.

2. The ongoing campaign in Iraq did not 'involve only the U.S. and Britain'...... As you allege. Although it was frustrating for many Americans who saw no need for him to do so, President Bush did address this through the UN in the months priour...... And when we finally went into Iraq, coalition forces were initially inclusive of 39 nations. And yes, we appreciate the efforts of our allies in the UK, Canada, Australia, Germany and all the others who stood with us against Hussein as well.

3. There are not 'two completely separate wars in Iraq that have little or no connection with each other'...... As you allege. In many respects, the ongoing campaign in Iraq is a continuation of the 1st Gulf War. You see, the ceasefire agreement ending hostilities there in 1991 specifically states that Iraq was to disarm to the extent that Hussein could no longer pose a threat to other nations and in addition to other restrictions and stipulations...... Further specifies that should he not honour the agreement in any way (and he broke it many times)...... Any or all nations signatory to the 1991 ceasefire agreement brokered by the UN (that includes America) may resume hostilities against Iraq and enforce the provisions of the ceasefire agreement at any time in future. That agreement remains in force to this very day and requires no further approval nor authorization from the UN.

4. Our military campaign in Iraq was / is in no way 'illegal'...... As you allege.

5. Our forces there are not 'murdering' and 'torturing' innocent Iraqi civilians...... As you allege.

6. President Bush did not 'lie' about anything...... As you allege. Although that was not the primary reason for our going into Iraq...... Saddam Hussein did, in fact, have weapons of mass destruction...... And evidence of them has been found and reported during the current campaign in Iraq.

7. And even though the opposition party during his time in office did their best to sabotage the war effort and sell out our troops serving in harm's way...... And managed to politicize the war on terror in general and our campiagn in Iraq in particular...... For purely political purposes in their quest to regain power...... The war is not 'lost'...... As you allege.

Now...... If you sincerely wish to know the truth and somehow missed all of this as it unfolded over the past 8 years...... I will be happy to walk you through it.

To begin, please refer to my response to Paul on page 14 of Mike's thread about healthcare reform when he digressed and broached this subject......

viewtopic.php?t=17589&start=195

With respect,

Harry

According to the ISG, no WMDs where found nor where they likely to ever have existed and since they are the only officials from the Bush administration looking for & reporting on WMDs, any neocons such as yourself should have no problem excepting their verdict.

Paul, there were most certainly WMDs in Iraq priour to our deposing Hussein there. And if you are interested, I can expound on that. However, in the interests of brevity, I will merely touch on a few of the major events leading up to the ongoing military campaign in Iraq for you here. WMDs were a factor, yes...... But they were a lesser side issue in the overall scheme of things.

The important thing to remember is that the campaign in Iraq is merely one component part of the overall war on terror. It was never a separate "war" in and of itself, as many in the media attempt to portray it. Also, we here in America do not think that everybody in the world is against us nor that they hate us. In reality, there are some in the world who do, but many more who do not. That is just the way it is. Life is not a popularity contest. There are times when one must stand up for what is right...... Even if it means standing alone when only a few agree. That is how it is with nations as well as with people at times. The challenges facing us with regard to the worldwide war on terror are of such import that they tend to polarize those having differing viewpoints. The war on terror is not as simple as dealing with a few organized international thugs in isolated incidents. You see, our future as a nation and the collective future of the entirety of Western civilization hang in the balance. The situation is that serious. I am not exaggerating.

O.K., here goes......

In retrospect, former President Carter's failure to respond swiftly and decisively with overwhelming military force to the Iran hostage situation beginning in late 1979 marked the beginning of an escalation of anti-American activities by middle eastern terrorist organizations. As the leader of our nation at that time, President Carter's show of weakness and failed resolve was taken by the terrorists to mean that America as a nation lacked the will and resolve to defend herself and so America and Americans abroad were thereafter regarded by the terrorists as viable targets for attack.

19 years later, the following statement from Osama/Usama bin Laden and his associates purported to be a religious ruling (fatwa) requiring the killing of Americans, both civilian and military. This document is part of the evidence that links the bin Laden network to the September 11 terrorist attacks on New York and Washington......


"Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders

World Islamic Front Statement......

23 February 1998

Shaykh Usamah Bin-Muhammad Bin-Ladin
Ayman al-Zawahiri, amir of the Jihad Group in Egypt
Abu-Yasir Rifa'i Ahmad Taha, Egyptian Islamic Group
Shaykh Mir Hamzah, secretary of the Jamiat-ul-Ulema-e-Pakistan
Fazlur Rahman, amir of the Jihad Movement in Bangladesh

Praise be to G-d, who revealed the Book, controls the clouds, defeats factionalism, and says in His Book: "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)"; and peace be upon our Prophet, Muhammad Bin-'Abdallah, who said: I have been sent with the sword between my hands to ensure that no one but G-d is worshipped, G-d who put my livelihood under the shadow of my spear and who inflicts humiliation and scorn on those who disobey my orders.

The Arabian Peninsula has never -- since G-d made it flat, created its desert, and encircled it with seas -- been stormed by any forces like the crusader armies spreading in it like locusts, eating its riches and wiping out its plantations. All this is happening at a time in which nations are attacking Muslims like people fighting over a plate of food. In the light of the grave situation and the lack of support, we and you are obliged to discuss current events, and we should all agree on how to settle the matter.

No one argues today about three facts that are known to everyone; we will list them, in order to remind everyone:

First, for over seven years the United States has been occupying the lands of Islam in the holiest of places, the Arabian Peninsula, plundering its riches, dictating to its rulers, humiliating its people, terrorizing its neighbors, and turning its bases in the Peninsula into a spearhead through which to fight the neighboring Muslim peoples.

If some people have in the past argued about the fact of the occupation, all the people of the Peninsula have now acknowledged it. The best proof of this is the Americans' continuing aggression against the Iraqi people using the Peninsula as a staging post, even though all its rulers are against their territories being used to that end, but they are helpless.

Second, despite the great devastation inflicted on the Iraqi people by the crusader-Zionist alliance, and despite the huge number of those killed, which has exceeded 1 million... despite all this, the Americans are once against trying to repeat the horrific massacres, as though they are not content with the protracted blockade imposed after the ferocious war or the fragmentation and devastation.

So here they come to annihilate what is left of this people and to humiliate their Muslim neighbors.

Third, if the Americans' aims behind these wars are religious and economic, the aim is also to serve the Jews' petty state and divert attention from its occupation of Jerusalem and murder of Muslims there. The best proof of this is their eagerness to destroy Iraq, the strongest neighboring Arab state, and their endeavor to fragment all the states of the region such as Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Sudan into paper statelets and through their disunion and weakness to guarantee Israel's survival and the continuation of the brutal crusade occupation of the Peninsula.

All these crimes and sins committed by the Americans are a clear declaration of war on G-d, his messenger, and Muslims. And ulema have throughout Islamic history unanimously agreed that the jihad is an individual duty if the enemy destroys the Muslim countries. This was revealed by Imam Bin-Qadamah in "Al- Mughni," Imam al-Kisa'i in "Al-Bada'i," al-Qurtubi in his interpretation, and the shaykh of al-Islam in his books, where he said: "As for the fighting to repulse [an enemy], it is aimed at defending sanctity and religion, and it is a duty as agreed [by the ulema]. Nothing is more sacred than belief except repulsing an enemy who is attacking religion and life."

On that basis, and in compliance with G-d's order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims:

The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty G-d, "and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together," and "fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in G-d."

This is in addition to the words of Almighty G-d: "And why should ye not fight in the cause of G-d and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)? -- women and children, whose cry is: 'Our Lord, rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will help!'"

We -- with G-d's help -- call on every Muslim who believes in G-d and wishes to be rewarded to comply with G-d's order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it. We also call on Muslim ulema, leaders, youths, and soldiers to launch the raid on Satan's U.S. troops and the devil's supporters allying with them, and to displace those who are behind them so that they may learn a lesson.

Almighty G-d said: "O ye who believe, give your response to G-d and His Apostle, when He calleth you to that which will give you life. And know that G-d cometh between a man and his heart, and that it is He to whom ye shall all be gathered."

Almighty G-d also says: "O ye who believe, what is the matter with you, that when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of G-d, ye cling so heavily to the earth! Do ye prefer the life of this world to the hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least. For G-d hath power over all things."

Almighty G-d also says: "So lose no heart, nor fall into despair. For ye must gain mastery if ye are true in faith."


Our nation was attacked by terrorists of bin Laden's al-Qaeda organization on 11 September, 2001 with a resulting loss of life exceeding 3,000 with many more maimed, injured, widowed and orphaned. As a result of this attack, the following joint resolution authorizing the use of force against terrorists was adopted 14 Sept., 2001 by the U.S. Senate and the House of Representatives......


"To authorize the use of United States armed forces against those responsible for the recent attacks launched against the United States.

Whereas, on Sept. 11, 2001, acts of despicable violence were committed against the United States and its citizens; and

Whereas, such acts render it both necessary and appropriate that the United States exercise its rights to self-defense and to protect United States citizens both at home and abroad, and

Whereas, in light of the threat to the national security and foreign policy of the United States posed by these grave acts of violence, and

Whereas, such acts continue to pose an unusual and extraordinary threat to the national security and foreign policy of the United States,

Whereas the president has authority under the Constitution to take action to deter and prevent acts of international terrorism against the United States.

Resolved by the Senate and the House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

Section 1. Short Title

This joint resolution may be cited as the "Authorization for Use of Military Force"

Section 2. Authorization for Use of United States Armed Forces

(a) That the president is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on Sept. 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons.

(b) War Powers Resolution Requirements

(1) Specific Statutory Authorization -- Consistent with section 8(a)(1) of the War Powers Resolution, the Congress declares that this section is intended to constitute specific statutory authorization within the meaning of section 5(b) of the War Powers Resolution.

(2) Applicability of Other Requirements -- Nothing in this resolution supersedes any requirement of the War Powers Resolution."


As you know, our military forces, aided by coalition forces, initially pursued bin Laden and his al-Qaeda organization to his stronghold in Afghanistan where the Taliban government had allowed him to set up his main base camps. After the fall of the Taliban, the demise of many al-Qaeda terrorists and with bin Laden hiding under the protection of local warlords on both sides of the Afghan/Pakistani border...... America and her allies turned their attention to the next most immediate threat in that regard...... Saddam Hussein's Iraq.

Iraq had violated Article 2 of the UN Charter by sponsoring terrorist activities against America, Israel and several other countries leading up to the al-Qaeda attacks of 11 September, 2001. At the time of the 11 September attacks, Iraq had al-Qaeda training camps and operatives within her borders. Hussein had prior knowledge of the attacks and was one of those in the region who had given his approval, well wishes, monetary and logistical support beforehand to those who carried out the attacks against us.

Additionally, by failing to disarm (a condition of the cease fire that ended hostilities in the 1st Gulf War 12 years prior...... a condition that remains in effect to this day), Hussein had placed Iraq in the position (under the provisions of the original cease fire) of being subject to disarmament by any means necessary...... Including military force.

For months, the UN failed to take action mandated by its own resolutions and charter as America and her allies were stymied by those nations on the Security Council such as France, Germany and Russia who...... Along with Communist China...... Stood to gain billions as they continued to provide Hussein with outlawed weaponry and the wherewithal to pursue development of WMD's having long range delivery capabilities.

There were those who argued that "containment" of Iraq was sufficient and that as such, no military action was warranted. Hussein, however, was not "contained" so long as he was able to continue to support, train, fund, shelter, and arm terrorists such as al-Qaeda and others and to utilize them as surrogates to extend his range of operations and influence outside Iraq.

If anything, we should learn from history not to appease the Hitlers and the Husseins of the world, but to deal with them early on...... Before they become so powerful militarily that many more lives are lost (on both sides) when we finally have no choice but to take action against them. Better to fight the terrorists now on their own turf than to let them go unchecked and fight a stronger, better equipped enemy here in the streets of America...... Or your own country...... One day soon.

After months of frustrating dealings with the UN, that organization proved itself to no longer to be relevant in today's world and so America and coalition forces had no choice, given the threat that Hussein posed to regional and to world security, but to take action on their own.

Notwithstanding all that, America has every right as a sovereign nation to defend herself against the terrorists and those who sponsor them...... With or without UN approval. I am hopeful that America will one day see the UN for what it really is and withdraw from that organization. It has long since outlived its intended purpose and seems to exist today only to funnel monies collected for "humanitarian aid" to the private Swiss bank accounts of despotic dictators and funders of terrorists. America doesn't need the UN...... It is they who need us.

Best regards,

Harry

[Engguy]

Its always a game. To make 2 dogs fight you throw a rock between them.
Pretty much that simple. But we have or had Charlie Gibbson to tells us its all so serious.