more chinese ------

Warpspeed · Post by **Warpspeed** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:38 am

O/k guys, it is good that the discussion is continuing.

There are two points of view, the US attitude, and what the rest of the world thinks about all this.

I am sure from what I have read here that the US attitude is, that Saddam did have weapons of mass destruction, and that in itself justified an invasion. Also Americans say stuff the rest of the world, we do what WE want to do and answer to nobody.

The rest of the world is far more cautious than that., No other nation now backs, agrees with, or is fighting beside America in this war.
I hope you all fully understand that.

I think we are all now agreed that the US invasion was not backed by any UN resolutions for such an invasion, and no other country (except Britain) agreed with the US that Saddam did in fact have weapons of mass destruction sufficient to be a significant threat to anyone..

The US government (and you guys) say he did, no other Nation agrees with that view, to the extent that it required another war..

Right or wrong, the US is in a minority with that WMD opinion.

Anyhow, the way the situation is now in Iraq is as follows:

The US is trying to gain total control of the entire country by military force.

Twenty eight other nations have some military in Iraq, but none are on the side of the US in this war. All are in the country in a neutral non combat role "trying to rebuild Iraq" , or in other words supplying humanitarian aid.

The truth is, that there is now MASSIVE international aid pouring into Iraq to try to rebuild all the things that America is blowing up and destroying.
Food, material, medical aid, is coming from countries like Australia and Canada, and a host of others.

Weapons, explosives, and manpower are also pouring into Iraq from nearby Middle Eastern Muslim Countries, (not listed in the twenty eight).

In other words, almost the whole world is now supplying aid to Iraq in one form or another, Only the US is conducting military operations against insurgents in Iraq.

The "Insurgents" are not firing upon or road bombing ANY of the uniformed military with the twenty eight foreign nations in Iraq, only the US invaders.

To say the US is protecting all the other foreigners in Iraq is just LAUGHABLE..

Do you really believe the US could protect 1,600 Australians over six years so well, that the Aussies had ZERO deaths, when the US cannot even protect itself, and has 7,500+ deaths.

That is just impossible to believe.

The truth is, the US are being especially targeted as the ONLY enemy in Iraq..

Australians are never fired upon, Canadians either. That is why we have zero military casualties.

Check out the casualties of the other 28 nations that are supplying real humanitarian aid to Iraq.
Why would the Iraqis fire on them either ?
They have no reason to..

You still do not understand the reality in Iraq.

Basically the entire world is now pouring aid into Iraq, and uniformed aid workers are NEVER fired upon. Many Australians HAVE been murdered in Iraq, especially from road ambush. All were journalists or aid workers NOT in uniform. They were mistaken for Americans. The Aussie military with flags, uniforms, and insignia, have never been deliberately fired upon or road bombed EVER..

In a real sense, all this aid from countries like Australia and Canada, and all the others, are why America can never win in Iraq. The Iraqi people KNOW they have massive international support against the American terrorists invading their country.

Iraq has the WHOLE WORLD behind it, good will, weapons, material, and food pour into Iraq every day to directly supply and support the insurgents from all around the world.

Pretty much the same situation occurred in Vietnam, where unlimited resources poured into Vietnam across borders to re supply the Viet Cong.
Kill one gook, and two more come across the border.

The same situation exists in Iraq.

How else do you think a crappy little country, already totally beaten militarily in Gulf War One, could fight off 150,000+ of America's finest, with all the latest technology weaponry, to a complete stalemate for SIX YEARS.

If you realize that you are fighting twenty eight declared nations, and about a dozen other Middle Eastern undeclared countries, you may begin to understand why the American military are getting nowhere in Iraq.

If you plan to stay in Iraq, bring plenty of body bags, you will need them.

The idea that you can win a war of attrition against a small nation that is supported by just about THE ENTIRE WORLD is just not realistic.

Americans will howl with outrage at this.

But it is all perfectly true.
No journalist in the USA would ever dare to publish any of this, he would never work again in the US if he ever tried.
The real truth is never talked about, but is self evident if you research..
But check the real facts for yourself on the internet.

Only Americans (or people mistaken for Americans) are targeted in Iraq.
The Iraqi people (insurgents) welcome the other foreigners, and fellow Muslims that are supporting them.
One good thing about his Iraq war, it has brought many former long term enemies in the Middle East together.

enigma57 · Post by **enigma57** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:59 am

af2 wrote:Thank you Harry,
I get so friggin flustered I need to chill for a while.
Australia must be the best place to live with the Tracks going down hill to make the #'s.

Hang in there, Adam. Its not Australia. I have good friends there, some of whom I have known since 1964. Australians I have met are great folks. Never met an Aussie I didn't like. Heck, I seriously considered immigrating there myself about 35 years ago. But that's a story for another time.

What you must remember is that over the past several decades, the majority of the Australian media and daily press have taken a decidedly left turn, same as our own media here Stateside. And just as many folks here (though fewer and fewer of late) still consider our own left-biased media to be credible...... And unquestioningly accept the propaganda spoon fed them on a daily basis...... So it is in Australia, Canada and Europe as well. Only much more so there than here.

This is in large part why you will encounter folks from time to time both here and abroad who sincerely believe the anti-American rhetoric and propaganda repeated to them time and again, year after year.

So don't be taken aback. Just present them with the facts if you feel so inclined...... And give them 'the right to be wrong' if they are unwilling to consider a differing point of view. You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink (of the truth).

Best regards,

Harry

Warpspeed · Post by **Warpspeed** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 5:33 am

Harry,

Deep in your own heart, can you honestly say that everything the US Government does is good and right, and that the US press never tells a lie ?

What I am coming to here is horrific.

Very soon, your own government is going to declare martial law, and turn on you with all the violence, viciousness, and weaponry it has used in Iraq.

While the Iraqis have the support of the entire world against your government, such support will not be forthcoming to the American people when your own Government turns upon you.

I am serious about this Harry.

The day of reckoning for Americans is coming close, and all I hear from America is "might is right", deadly force settles all arguments, we are armed and do what we damned well please.

God help you all.

Ron E · Post by **Ron E** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 7:26 am

Tony, your entire position is based on your own conjecture. You say "check the internet". What position can not find support somewhere on the internet? Any attitude you want reinforced can easily be done.

Now, 1st hand on our media....
You pretend they are indeed blindly patriotic. This is laughable. You couldn't be more misguided. But, you're correct in saying the public is mislead here. It's just in the opposite direction you believe. Our MSM is so slanted to the left it's a wonder they don't fall off. If you want current proof of this, let me know. I'll provide examples. And you won't really have to go searching on the 'net to find it.

Threat to Americans from it's own government. It's becoming more true every day. But, you may be surprised to find this threat is quite new. It is under way and began with the current administration. Again, if you want examples, I'll provide.

If these two points seem in conflict with the sources you trust, you are dealing with biased sources. Possibly as far out there as NBC. I'd hope you would know better than that.

Keep in mind you're debating here with people who are living it every day while you're reading about it. And to assume we all just believe what we're told and don't read the same 'net as you is a little insulting. I can say, if we did just believe what we were told, our positions would be much closer than they are here.

enigma57 · Post by **enigma57** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 5:17 am

Tony, you have a very loose grasp on reality if you actually believe what you have posted here.

I will say only this...... If you really knew anything at all regarding the character of the American people and of our fine men and women serving in our armed forces...... You would know that should the current (or any) administration attempt what you suggest, it would be a toss up as to who would act more rapidly to remove those in government violating our constitution by any and all means necessary...... We (the general citizenry), or our sons and daughters serving in uniform who took an oath to 'support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic' (they are duty bound to obey only lawful orders, BTW).

But should the unthinkable occur as you suggest, remember this...... 'G-d helps those who help themselves'. And you can bet your arse that we will help ourselves!

Best regards,

Harry

1989TransAm · Post by **1989TransAm** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:57 pm

"And you can bet your arse that we will help ourselves!"

That we will.

At least some of us.

Warpspeed · Post by **Warpspeed** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 4:20 am

Ron E wrote:Tony, your entire position is based on your own conjecture. You say "check the internet". What position can not find support somewhere on the internet? Any attitude you want reinforced can easily be done.

Now, 1st hand on our media....
You pretend they are indeed blindly patriotic. This is laughable. You couldn't be more misguided. But, you're correct in saying the public is mislead here..

Ron, you are one of the wise ones.

When others here suggested that 28 Nations were in Iraq "rebuilding Iraq". everyone just assumed that meant twenty eight nations were killing insurgents, blowing things up,raping and torturing, and supporting America 100%

When Another poster said Canada was in Iraq, everyone here just assumed that was +proof" Canada is taking orders from the American President, and following EXACTLY what the US is doing in Iraq.

To learn that twenty eight nations are actually in Iraq OPPOSING America, and helping to put Americans in body bags, met utter disbelief.

But NOBODY has refuted what I say, they just hate me, think I am a Communist, or believe I am full of it.

All the rest of the world just wants is to be left alone by America, and be allowed to live our lives in peace and safety.

Warpspeed · Post by **Warpspeed** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 4:36 am

enigma57 wrote: Tony, you have a very loose grasp on reality if you actually believe what you have posted here.
Harry

Harry, my friend (and I mean that sincerely).

If you can present some evidence here to say I am dead wrong, a liar, or out of my freakin mind, please present it.

I know you don't like hearing that every other nation in the world now opposes America in Iraq, but what else explains America's inability to control a small totally broken down little desert country with no resources of it's own ?.

Without world support, the US military should have had total control of Iraq in a couple of weeks from the initial invasion.
.
You find all that impossible to believe.
But use your head.

Why do you think it has taken six years for America to fight itself to absolutely nowhere in Iraq.
Where is all the opposition, and where are all the resources coming from to do that ?

When the Russians poured into Georgia, it was over in DAYS.
When Americans poured into Iraq in force, with all the latest technology, it too should have been a very quick defeat.

But is wasn't was it.
Why ??

1989TransAm · Post by **1989TransAm** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:48 pm

"When others here suggested that 28 Nations were in Iraq "rebuilding Iraq". everyone just assumed that meant twenty eight nations were killing insurgents, blowing things up,raping and torturing, and supporting America 100%"

Nobody said any such thing about the 28 nations. You are the one throwing around wild accusations. The 28 nations were doing what they could in support. You were the one who said only American and Great Britian were involved in Iraq. You are the one saying American soldiers killed around 1.4 million Iraqis.

I would hide my head in shame if I were you.

Warpspeed · Post by **Warpspeed** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 5:21 pm

1989TransAm wrote:"When others here suggested that 28 Nations were in Iraq "rebuilding Iraq". everyone just assumed that meant twenty eight nations were killing insurgents, blowing things up,raping and torturing, and supporting America 100%"

Nobody said any such thing about the 28 nations. You are the one throwing around wild accusations. The 28 nations were doing what they could in support. You were the one who said only American and Great Britian were involved in Iraq. You are the one saying American soldiers killed around 1.4 million Iraqis.

I would hide my head in shame if I were you.

The twenty eight nations certainly ARE doing what they can to support and rebuild Iraq,

But support WHO ??

Certainly not America.
America is in deadly combat in Iraq, but none of the twenty eight other nations with military in Iraq are fighting anyone.

Iraqis are sniping and road bombing Americans, but not firing upon any of the military of the other twenty eight .

America has an ever steeply rising death toll, but the twenty eight are never even fired upon.

The only way 160,000 American military are going to totally control little Iraq, would be to fire upon Canadians, and Australians and chase us, and all the other peaceful supporting countries right out of Iraq.

But if the US did that, it would certainly very quickly "win" in Iraq, but in the process lose most of the five hundred foreign military bases it has around the world.

Why should I hang my head in shame ?
I am telling the absolute truth.
Nobody here has offered ANYTHING at all to refute what I say.

Keep searching guys, and discover the TRUTH about your government, your press and media, and the constant flow of lies you are being fed.

Honestly, do you seriously believe that 160,000 American battle troops, backed up by the combined military of twenty eight other nations, after six years of combat, cannot control a few civilian insurgents in Iraq ?

What is wrong with that picture.
Do you seriously believe that is the real situation ?

af2 · Post by **af2** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 5:59 pm

1989TransAm wrote:"When others here suggested that 28 Nations were in Iraq "rebuilding Iraq". everyone just assumed that meant twenty eight nations were killing insurgents, blowing things up,raping and torturing, and supporting America 100%"

Tony. Re read you're first part again!!
If you want to call us rapist and torturous. Then you can go to hell!!! Never mind you did just that!
You are so far gone I can't even tolerate you're missguided BS!
That is despicable for any outsider that has no facts to back up their BS hatred for the U.S.
Tony, Get a life my man.
At least WE have the 2Nd amendment!!!
You are screwed!

Warpspeed · Post by **Warpspeed** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 6:38 pm

af2 wrote:If you want to call us rapist and torturous. Then you can go to hell!!! Never mind you did just that!

Torture was the official policy of the Bush Cheney administration.
That goes directly against the treatment of POWS according to the Geneva Convention.

This was not just a few combat guys getting carried away in a war zone, it WAS OFFICIAL US GOVERNMENT POLICY to torture prisoners.

The US courts have now convicted many US military personnel for rapes in Iraq.

This is all now on open public record, and cannot be denied.

1989TransAm · Post by **1989TransAm** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 6:58 pm

"Torture was the official policy of the Bush Cheney administration."

You are a lunatic. You have defamed the fine people serving in our armed forces. There is no use posting to someone so far out on the fringe. I'm done and I'm not going to lower myself to your level.

Warpspeed · Post by **Warpspeed** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 7:06 pm

1989TransAm wrote:"Torture was the official policy of the Bush Cheney administration."

You are a lunatic. You have defamed the fine people serving in our armed forces. There is no use posting to someone so far out on the fringe. I'm done and I'm not going to lower myself to your level.

In Law, the one solid defence for defamation is telling the truth.

If I call a torturer a torturer, that is not defamation.

Ever heard of Abu Gharib ?

If you have never heard anything about the torture issues in Iraq, I suggest you do a little research.

What really sickens me though, is Americans supporting the use of torture.

Still, very soon when Obama declares martial law, and Blackwater, or Homeland Security connect you up to the wires, you might feel very glad in your own heart, that it is another American that pulls the switch.

af2 · Post by **af2** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 8:23 pm

Warpspeed wrote:In Law, the one solid defence for defamation is telling the truth.

If I call a torturer a torturer, that is not defamation.

Ever heard of Abu Gharib ?

If you have never heard anything about the torture issues in Iraq, I suggest you do a little research.

What really sickens me though, is Americans supporting the use of torture.

Still, very soon when Obama declares martial law, and Blackwater, or Homeland Security connect you up to the wires, you might feel very glad in your own heart, that it is another American that pulls the switch.

We should force them to eat a big Ole juicy Rib-Eye. That is torture because they eat friggin goat!
Throw a set of panties over their heads(I prefer thongs) that is torture! Give them everything they want in every prison they reside. That must be torture!! Let them pray to the all mighty Allah when ever they get a hard on. I guess that must me torture.
Tony, get real for once because you haven't a clue what torture is. Never mind! Water boarding!!!! You or anyone that thinks it is close to torture needs you're fingers cut off then toes then tongue then genitals then come back here and have a discussion!!!! The only thing you can discuss is nothing because you have nothing.