Ethics ?

robert1 · Post by **robert1** » Tue Aug 04, 2009 7:52 pm

I have 2 engines in my shop with the same problem. One I installed the rods new, they may have 1200 laps now, the other was built by a well known dirt engine builder. I was told it has around 1800 laps since new. It ran around 10 races after I freshened it. Both motors broke a rod. One still had the big end on the crank. The other pulled the big end apart. I had another of the same brand fail 2 years ago. The manufacturer said it was the bolt. I installed ARP 625 plus in these 2 motors at freshen up. Both sets were wet magged at freshen up. My daughter took pics tonight that I may post. My question is should I post the manufacturer so others do not fall into this situation? This is going to be extremely expensive to both parties through no fault of their own. These are both aluminum motors and it didn't kill the block so far as I can tell. But they are going to need pistons, rods, 2 sleeves ea, cams, and more. I would be particuylarly interested in Mark O'Neal and DCal's input as you are both manufacturers.

ProPower engines · Post by **ProPower engines** » Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:07 pm

I would say keep it to yor self but I would be interested by way of a PM to know the brand rather then in public.
Us engine buiders live in a very small world and repercussions will come.
You mentioned you replaced the rod bolts and were they identical to the originals ie: same bolt stretch spec?
If they were a lesser quality rod then maybe they should be changed out when freshened like wise pistons if they have had a hard life.
What kind of car were they in and at what RPM did they see in service.

Keith Morganstein · Post by **Keith Morganstein** » Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:09 pm

Assuming there isn't spun bearing, blackened rod issues, I would normally think based on your description that the rod where the big end pulled apart is a fastener/fastener torque issue. OTOH, The rod the broke in the middle sounds like a rod issue.

However, I have been trained NOT to jump to conclusions on failure analysis. Photo's would help, but I find those very lacking compared to having the whole failure in front of me.

Two rod failures in separate engines really stinks, but they are used rods and this is racing. I would be cautious before condemning a rod manufacturers product based on two separate and different failures with used rods.

Alan Roehrich · Post by **Alan Roehrich** » Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:21 pm

I agree with Keith. Pretty much completely.

robert1 · Post by **robert1** » Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:27 pm

The rod that came off of the crank didn't burn a bearing. The bearing is complete. If I post the pics you'll be able to see where the rod failed at the fork and as it unwrapped it bent and broke the bolt. If the bolt just broke it wouldn't be bent at the same angle as where everything came apart. I understand that even with photos it is very difficult to determine the cause of a failure but these are pretty obvious. As a side note I made race rods for a year so I have a pretty good background in the subject.

PackardV8 · Post by **PackardV8** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 12:01 am

Why not go directly to the manufacturer? As an approach, tell them you are concerned about your reputation as a builder and theirs as a manufacturer. Neither of you can withstand failures. Ask them what you should do about it. Can they analyze the failure and tell what caused it? If/when you send them the broken rods, get a signature confirmation of receipt and ask for a date when a report will be available.

thnx, jack vines

mustangmike68 · Post by **mustangmike68** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 12:39 am

ProPower engines wrote:I would say keep it to yor self but I would be interested by way of a PM to know the brand

Are you serious?

ProPower engines · Post by **ProPower engines** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 12:59 am

As a matter of fact I was serious.

cboggs · Post by **cboggs** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 2:34 am

PackardV8 wrote:Why not go directly to the manufacturer? As an approach, tell them you are concerned about your reputation as a builder and theirs as a manufacturer. Neither of you can withstand failures. Ask them what you should do about it. Can they analyze the failure and tell what caused it? If/when you send them the broken rods, get a signature confirmation of receipt and ask for a date when a report will be available.

thnx, jack vines

This is great advice, .. it's racing, things break, we are pushing limits.

Involve the manf. To help diagnose the issue and avoid it happening again, ..
but sometimes you'll never really know what happened or what broke first.

Curtis

Engguy · Post by **Engguy** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 3:07 am

You could at least say if it is an H or an I beam type rod.
And pictures would be nice.

ap72 · Post by **ap72** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 8:30 am

Ethically I would say that taking pictures and reporting AS MUCH AS YOU CAN about the circumstances and the rod manufacturer would be the most ethical thing to do. That way you allow people to make their own judgment, you are not putting any direct blame on the manufacturer, AND you are informing your colleagues of a potential issue. If a company swipes evidence under the rug we cry out that the public is being abused and misguided, why should your shop be held to any less stringent standards than a billion dollar corporation?

There is nothing unethical about trying to share knowledge- provided of course someone else doesn't already own that knowledge (sponsorships).

airflowdevelop · Post by **airflowdevelop** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 10:04 am

why is everyone in such a hurry to throw the manufacturer under the bus all the time... damn shame what we have come too.

robert1 · Post by **robert1** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 10:17 am

My reason for posting this was to see if people were interested in knowing the manufaturer. I would certainly liked to have known before I got this far down the road with these. When I picked up the second motor another guy was there and asked if a modified motor they had there had these. I said yes and even worse it has their ultra lite rods. And they have another open motor there that has the same rods. I have around 4 or 5 motors left with these in them. I just sent a set of rockers back to a manufacturer that were 6 years old but had never been opened from their sealed package. I was freshening the guys motor and found a cracked rocker. I asked him to send me 1 of these. When we went through them most were cracked. The manufacturer made a new set and sent them back at no charge. So they will on occasion do the right thing. And yes I will be in touch with them on these rods but I doubt the outcome will be the same. I did check the hardness on these this morning as we had discussed this in the steel vs titainium thread. They are 44 Rc.

airflowdevelop · Post by **airflowdevelop** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 10:38 am

you completely missed the point...

the point I am getting to is... if it was a manufacturing problem... don't you think the rods would have failed a little sooner?

possibly it was an application problem?

I assume the rods are being used on the dirt? even my cheapest customer gets a set of rods once a year. racing on dirt causes some serious stress...that I don't think we can even imagine.

motormonkey · Post by **motormonkey** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:18 am

Why not name the manufacturer of the rods? Its no different than naming Ford Chevy or Dodge after a failure.
Things happen and it could be part of the trouble shoot. Id bet if it was a offshore rod thier would be a line of the same guys obove bashing the brand. For what its worth.