Interesting, I got some guys that have been running the same Crowers for 4 years. I'm just starting a motor that will have used Crowers that one of my guys bought from another and I have no qualms about using them.airflowdevelop wrote:you completely missed the point...
possibly it was an application problem?
Very good point! They are 660 gram rods in a dirt late model motor. They should be more than good enough at that weight.
I assume the rods are being used on the dirt? even my cheapest customer gets a set of rods once a year. racing on dirt causes some serious stress...that I don't think we can even imagine.
Ethics ?
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Yikes, what rods are you using? I would expect Carrillo, Dyers and other 300M rods to go at least 100 nights. Can't imagine Saturday night racers laying down $2,400 every year for new Carrillo's.airflowdevelop wrote:you completely missed the point...
I assume the rods are being used on the dirt? even my cheapest customer gets a set of rods once a year. racing on dirt causes some serious stress...that I don't think we can even imagine.
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airflowdevelop
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Interesting... So is it ethical to give a report of a product not failing? If its unethical to release a name of a faulty product then isn't just as unethical to release the name of a quality product?robert1 wrote:
Interesting, I got some guys that have been running the same Crowers for 4 years. I'm just starting a motor that will have used Crowers that one of my guys bought from another and I have no qualms about using them.
Which is why I vote to disclose full information.
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airflowdevelop
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I'm a bad example.
I actually prefer to air my dirty laundry. All I can say about naming the manufacturer is that you have to be certain of the cause....or just state what happened....and don't frame it as a complaint.
Someone might know of an issue with that part in a particular application that would help everyone. I'd file that as a "teachable moment" (
), instead of an accusation.
Everyone messes up...it's what we do after that that counts.
I actually prefer to air my dirty laundry. All I can say about naming the manufacturer is that you have to be certain of the cause....or just state what happened....and don't frame it as a complaint.
Someone might know of an issue with that part in a particular application that would help everyone. I'd file that as a "teachable moment" (
), instead of an accusation.Everyone messes up...it's what we do after that that counts.
I agree with ap72. Put the information out there in an unbiased, objective manner. It will be of service to the community.
If we see this kind of failures once, it could be extenuating circumstances. If multiple people have the same problem, it helps the user AND the manufacturer build a better product.
If you hide the problem, or keep the knowledge to a chosen few, we will never move forward.
If we see this kind of failures once, it could be extenuating circumstances. If multiple people have the same problem, it helps the user AND the manufacturer build a better product.
If you hide the problem, or keep the knowledge to a chosen few, we will never move forward.
Maybe the best approach is to first consult the manufacturer, then consider what they determine the theoretical root cause to be. I say theoretical because absolute root cause cannot be established until you repeat the failure mode & break another part the same way.
If you are not satisfied with the manufacturer's findings, post good close-up pictures of the failed parts here, without naming the manufacturer.
The most important thing right now is to know what the root cause of failure is, not to name the manufacturer.
We're all glad to help if we can so let us know what you decide to do.
If you are not satisfied with the manufacturer's findings, post good close-up pictures of the failed parts here, without naming the manufacturer.
The most important thing right now is to know what the root cause of failure is, not to name the manufacturer.
We're all glad to help if we can so let us know what you decide to do.
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Mark O'Neal
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I agree with RW.
Have a consultation with the manufacture to come up with the right answer as to why the rod failed.
You may have to be persistant in checking back with them but if they do not come to the table to work with you on a solution then by all means let the world know.
But only after you are sure of what happened.
Race parts fail even though most life a long life some times stuff breaks but in your case 2 engines with the same rods had a failure that does not say much for that parts life span and possibly they may be a bit light duty to begin with and looking for the lighter part may sacrifice durability.
Some or all rod makers have HP ratings for their rods but application and HP ratings do not always go hand in hand when it comes to durability.
Have a consultation with the manufacture to come up with the right answer as to why the rod failed.
You may have to be persistant in checking back with them but if they do not come to the table to work with you on a solution then by all means let the world know.
But only after you are sure of what happened.
Race parts fail even though most life a long life some times stuff breaks but in your case 2 engines with the same rods had a failure that does not say much for that parts life span and possibly they may be a bit light duty to begin with and looking for the lighter part may sacrifice durability.
Some or all rod makers have HP ratings for their rods but application and HP ratings do not always go hand in hand when it comes to durability.
Real Race Cars Don't Have Doors
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airflowdevelop
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very nicely put RW!RW TECH wrote:Maybe the best approach is to first consult the manufacturer, then consider what they determine the theoretical root cause to be. I say theoretical because absolute root cause cannot be established until you repeat the failure mode & break another part the same way.
If you are not satisfied with the manufacturer's findings, post good close-up pictures of the failed parts here, without naming the manufacturer.
The most important thing right now is to know what the root cause of failure is, not to name the manufacturer.
We're all glad to help if we can so let us know what you decide to do.
If you played baseball proffesionaly, and had used the same bat for 2 seasons, and one day, you hit the ball, and the bat broke, would there be the same subliminal thought that the manufacturer did something wrong?
Sorry that the rods broke, but, like was said above, unfortuantely in this sport, hobby, proffesion, what ever level your at, shit breaks. Period. Just dealt with something similiar with 2 tuliped Manley inconel valves in a marine application, that he WAY over heated due to a water flow issue, then ran the engine for 3 weekends, after the cylinder went dead, then when I finaly got it to fix/figure out what happened, I found the tuliped valves, and the cracked head. I got the 3rd degree on "WHY" it happened, and why he had to spend a bunch of money to fix it. I hate the insinuation that its something I did wrong, after 100hours of 5800 rpm wide open. Sorta the same deal with the rods.
Sorry that the rods broke, but, like was said above, unfortuantely in this sport, hobby, proffesion, what ever level your at, shit breaks. Period. Just dealt with something similiar with 2 tuliped Manley inconel valves in a marine application, that he WAY over heated due to a water flow issue, then ran the engine for 3 weekends, after the cylinder went dead, then when I finaly got it to fix/figure out what happened, I found the tuliped valves, and the cracked head. I got the 3rd degree on "WHY" it happened, and why he had to spend a bunch of money to fix it. I hate the insinuation that its something I did wrong, after 100hours of 5800 rpm wide open. Sorta the same deal with the rods.
As a manufacturer of pistons, and now rods, I suggest you contact the manufacturer and give them a shot at diagnosing the problem first. Most of us have diagnostics equipment which is more likely to find the problem more accurately than all your buddies in your garage. Most manufacturers want to produce quality parts and I believe you can sell more, by customers being pleased than you can by making "planned obsolesence" pieces.
We recently had a case where a failed rod turned out to be a failed piston. Had that customer not come to us first and given us a chance to help him I would have looked at him with a much lesser degree of respect. If you get no reasonable satisfaction --then do what what you must do, just don't close so many doors that you can't buy anywhere. And there will be cases where you really can't find the root cause of the failure, hopefully you and the manufacturer can work through this grey area and come to a point which is mutually agreeable.
R.I.P. Ronnie Marcum
Dcal
We recently had a case where a failed rod turned out to be a failed piston. Had that customer not come to us first and given us a chance to help him I would have looked at him with a much lesser degree of respect. If you get no reasonable satisfaction --then do what what you must do, just don't close so many doors that you can't buy anywhere. And there will be cases where you really can't find the root cause of the failure, hopefully you and the manufacturer can work through this grey area and come to a point which is mutually agreeable.
R.I.P. Ronnie Marcum
Dcal
This is very well stated and further reinforces the point that the manufacturer should get an opportunity to do some root cause investigation for you.DCal wrote:As a manufacturer of pistons, and now rods, I suggest you contact the manufacturer and give them a shot at diagnosing the problem first. Most of us have diagnostics equipment which is more likely to find the problem more accurately than all your buddies in your garage. Most manufacturers want to produce quality parts and I believe you can sell more, by customers being pleased than you can by making "planned obsolesence" pieces.
We recently had a case where a failed rod turned out to be a failed piston. Had that customer not come to us first and given us a chance to help him I would have looked at him with a much lesser degree of respect. If you get no reasonable satisfaction --then do what what you must do, just don't close so many doors that you can't buy anywhere. And there will be cases where you really can't find the root cause of the failure, hopefully you and the manufacturer can work through this grey area and come to a point which is mutually agreeable.
R.I.P. Ronnie Marcum
Dcal
Too bad there are so many vendors that automatically give the "Stroke Treatment" answer to everyone who isn't inside of their clique, but once you encounter vendors like this it's easy to refrain from ever spending money with them again. It's also a good reason for some to start their own businesss and compete with the guy who screwed them before.
One way to know whether a manufacturer is the real deal or not is to ask them to explain their Control Plan Strategy. If they don't have much of an answer rest yourself assured they don't have any kind of quality assurance processes & they're likely to be pumping junk out their back door.