Water cooled brakes

Shocks, Springs, Brakes, Frame, Body Work, etc

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j-c-c
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Re: Water cooled brakes

Post by j-c-c » Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:06 pm

On automotive disc brakes, I thought they were a derivative from the aircraft industry, not sure.

Back to water cooling, and feeling the misting total loss systems are not the point of this thread, I've already made my case in that direction.
Regarding the mentioned engineer, who the OP seems to highly regard, I can only address his mentioned idea, and wonder if it was just a quick thought being shared. Because the fact remains, the amount of heat generated by a nearly multi ton race car at triple digit speeds trying to stop as quickly as possible, repeatedly, for up to 24 hours, using water as a coolant, would be almost impossible. I've mentioned the temp limitations of water, and it would require rather high pressures to maintain a liquid state for maximum heat transfer. You normally want maximum temp differential in a heat exchanger between the ambient cooling air and the coolant, to transfer large amounts of heat. Existing systems of typical air cooled brakes have that already, in that rotors/drums glow in ambient air, with a temp difference approaching maybe a thousand degrees F, with water, 200F would be a task. An engine cooling system in a race application does not get over designed with other then with marginal over capacity, so any additional heat transfer with water cooled brakes would have to be designed in, ie, heavier/larger/more airflow/less slick aero/more complex/less reliable, etc, discounting how you would account for the different operating pressures required for the engine water coolant and a high pressurized brake coolant system, to prevent the brakes from boiling the water. Brake heat generation is very spikey and intense on a race track, whereas an engine is certainly relatively a lot more stable temp generator. Sorry, i don't see how this engineer spent much thought on his original idea, and history has proven, brakes have evolved enough to even handle much higher brake induced heat loads caused by areo drag reduction, greater traction available from DF, and most importantly, tire improvements.,
Last edited by j-c-c on Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.

j-c-c
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Re: Water cooled brakes

Post by j-c-c » Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:08 pm

:D

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Re: Water cooled brakes

Post by joe 90 » Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:28 am

How would you make a sealed system?

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Re: Water cooled brakes

Post by j-c-c » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:08 am

Use another medium rather then water, sodium?

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Re: Water cooled brakes

Post by Ratu » Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:55 am

A molten salt would do it. The boiling point is very high, even at 1 atm. Their properties of good heat conduction as well as physical and chemical stability at high temperatures have seen them even used for nuclear reactors. Brakes might not to prove to be too much of an issue for them. And they have been known about for a very long time indeed...

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Post by dwilliams » Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:39 pm

Ratu wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:23 pm
the snubbing they received from Enzo Ferrari himself.
As the usual story has it, Enzo snubbed Ferruccio Lamborghini when he complained about a problem with his Ferrari. Lamborghini went back to his tractor factory and ordered his engineers to start designing a sports car.

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Re: Water cooled brakes

Post by Ratu » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:27 pm

dwilliams

Yes indeed. And wasn't that an example of Enzo Ferrari scoring an own goal! He would have been better to have repaired the clutch on Ferruccio Lamborghini's Ferrari, taken the man out to a decent lunch and befriended him. Who knows they may even have been able to do business together. Instead....

Lamborghini was a very good businessman and more importantly he was excellent at spotting top grade talented people. The group he put together to design, develop, prove and manufacture his cars included the likes of Bizzarrini, Dallara, Stanzani, Wallace, Balboni etc. He was not one to underestimate! Fortunately for us Enzo did just that!

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Re: Water cooled brakes

Post by midnightbluS10 » Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:52 pm

tresi wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:37 pm
My dad told my about log trucks in Northern California having them in the 50's and early 60's but never in racecars. The water was sprayed on the drums and wasted rather recirculated.
This could be applied in a race setting, I'm sure.

https://books.google.com/books?id=rgEAA ... es&f=false

They talk about using a water-cooled disc brake design on racecars that was originally used for dynos.

You've also got water-cooled calipers. These are made by Alcon for WRC.

http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/wrc_ ... _tech.html


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Re: Water cooled brakes

Post by tresi » Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:36 am

Interesting. I know they have been somewhat recirculating brake fluid through the calipers for quite awhile now.

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Re: Water cooled brakes

Post by j-c-c » Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:43 pm

https://books.google.com/books?id=rgEAA ... es&f=false

That is interesting, they are embracing a phase change of the coolant rather then fighting it, their design looks to have a fairly even coolant path, ie few hot spots. If it indeed it does work so well reaching temp to effect phase change, my guess they could also vary coolant operating pressure. Might also need to look for a cooler pad temp range. Bet a LSR car could use this help, where weight is often a plus, and stopping quickly without issue helps on making a quick return run when seeking a record.

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Re: Water cooled brakes

Post by Ratu » Sun Apr 15, 2018 3:31 am

Can you repost the link? It is incomplete and won't work.

Thanks.

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Re: Water cooled brakes

Post by Kevin Johnson » Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:25 am

Ratu wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 3:31 am
Can you repost the link? It is incomplete and won't work.

Thanks.

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Re: Water cooled brakes

Post by Keith Morganstein » Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:57 am

Automotive Machining, cylinder head rebuilding, engine building. Old school shop, semi-retired moonlighter. Can't seem to quit #-o

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Re: Water cooled brakes

Post by Keith Morganstein » Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:06 pm

Oil cooled brakes are very common on heavy equipment and industrial vehicles. They are multi-disc, much like a Transmission clutch pack.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dvCYBUOtKrk
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Re: Water cooled brakes

Post by Kevin Johnson » Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:36 pm


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