Hello everyone:
I would like some opinions about how I can improve our Monte Carlo stock car.
We are racing on a 1/4 mile paved oval and are currently having the problem of a push on entry, but the car gets loose as soon as the throttle is picked up.
We are running all stock suspension, and the car has had all of the typical "street stock mods" done to it, but we are still very limited for actual adjustability.
I am just looking for general suggestions about this situation. How would you go about correcting a push without making the loose on exit worse?
Please feel free to make suggestions based on a late model chassis, like turning a jack bolt, for example. I can adapt my thinking to what I have available to me, in terms of a stock suspension.
I should note, we are already quite fast so I am looking to make subtle improvements, not having to fix a huge problem.
An example of this was last night where we finished the feature 2nd, but were faster than the winner and could get up to his door on the outside, but just could not get enough of an advantage on corner entry, and were just too loose on exit to get clear of him.
Thanks for the input.
RR
Stock Car Handling Question
Moderator: Team
Transient push on entry is often concerned with the drivers side rear shock. Putting one on with more rebound rate (stiffer) should help and shouldn't make the car any looser on exit.
The stiffer shock helps prevent the car loading the pass front tire on corner entry, due to breaking/weight transfer.
I'm not saying it's your only problem. Suspension sorting can be the devils own job. Just as good as any place to start.
Once you've sorted the push then look at the loose condition, which could be springs/bars (too stiff at rear) or power induced (put an elastic band in the throttle cable......kidding but you get the idea).
This should get you closer than you are, but is by no means definitve. Those better placed will give more detailed info.
NEVER chase two problems at once.
One other thought. Is the car as balanced (ie NOT as nose heavy) as it could be? The tracking may be worth a look too.
Good luck with your racing.
John.
The stiffer shock helps prevent the car loading the pass front tire on corner entry, due to breaking/weight transfer.
I'm not saying it's your only problem. Suspension sorting can be the devils own job. Just as good as any place to start.
Once you've sorted the push then look at the loose condition, which could be springs/bars (too stiff at rear) or power induced (put an elastic band in the throttle cable......kidding but you get the idea).
This should get you closer than you are, but is by no means definitve. Those better placed will give more detailed info.
NEVER chase two problems at once.
One other thought. Is the car as balanced (ie NOT as nose heavy) as it could be? The tracking may be worth a look too.
Good luck with your racing.
John.
Having to use "stock" shocks, our choices are quite limited, but I can do some juggling around.
I have always been told to fix the car in the order the problems occur... for example... corner entry, middle, then exit.
I have also been told to try to soften the end that requires grip.
I was considering going slightly softer on our front swaybar... from 1 1/4" down to 1" The car just does not seem to be taking a good set in the corners. I am afraid that it may be sprung too stiff, as I weigh well under 100 lbs less than the previous owner.
Thanks for the suggestions.
RR
I have always been told to fix the car in the order the problems occur... for example... corner entry, middle, then exit.
I have also been told to try to soften the end that requires grip.
I was considering going slightly softer on our front swaybar... from 1 1/4" down to 1" The car just does not seem to be taking a good set in the corners. I am afraid that it may be sprung too stiff, as I weigh well under 100 lbs less than the previous owner.
Thanks for the suggestions.
RR
I'm sure with some digging around you'll be able to find some shocks that have the same dims but are stiffer. Some of the classes I raced in had similar "stock" rules....but we got round it. If they're new, chip 'em, knock 'em about a bit, leave 'em out in the rain, dust some matt black on 'em, rub in some of that grotty old crud that collects around the bottom of old engines/cradle. Anything so they don't look new....................
We even used to drill them, change the oil and weld 'em back up again.......
I would always fix the WORST problem first, though some agree with correcting it as it happens.
Softening the end that requires grip or stiffening the end that doesn't are the first ways to go. So if you go softer on the front sway bar (thus making the rear seem stiffer) what do you think might happen? Would it make your exit oversteer worse, all things being equal?
If the car is balanced mid corner, as your lack of comment suggests, then your springs/bars at both ends are not far off...........
How is your car through ALL stages of the corner?
Your weight I think has little to do with your handling woes.................
Thought the pros may have commented.........
We even used to drill them, change the oil and weld 'em back up again.......
I would always fix the WORST problem first, though some agree with correcting it as it happens.
Softening the end that requires grip or stiffening the end that doesn't are the first ways to go. So if you go softer on the front sway bar (thus making the rear seem stiffer) what do you think might happen? Would it make your exit oversteer worse, all things being equal?
If the car is balanced mid corner, as your lack of comment suggests, then your springs/bars at both ends are not far off...........
How is your car through ALL stages of the corner?
Your weight I think has little to do with your handling woes.................
Thought the pros may have commented.........
As I have been discussing this with my crew chief, we have concluded that the car is pushing from corner entry, through the middle, then goes loose as throttle is fed in.
By softening the front bar, we were hoping that the car would take a set and be able to rotate sooner, which would allow me to apply throttle earlier and more evenly as I exit.
As we are, I get into the corner on the outside of someone, but have to wait on the push, which causes me to get on the throttle hard in an attempt to stay with the car inside.
I have also looked at some photos of the car from the grandstand, and it looks like the car is not transferring enough weight onto the RF. It looks dead flat compared to the car I ran last year which is rolling onto the RF (and RR) a lot more than this car.
I have also been reading about having the LF spring stiffer than the RF, but I would not try that until I can buy a spring rate checker, which is in the plans.
Thanks for the input.
RR
By softening the front bar, we were hoping that the car would take a set and be able to rotate sooner, which would allow me to apply throttle earlier and more evenly as I exit.
As we are, I get into the corner on the outside of someone, but have to wait on the push, which causes me to get on the throttle hard in an attempt to stay with the car inside.
I have also looked at some photos of the car from the grandstand, and it looks like the car is not transferring enough weight onto the RF. It looks dead flat compared to the car I ran last year which is rolling onto the RF (and RR) a lot more than this car.
I have also been reading about having the LF spring stiffer than the RF, but I would not try that until I can buy a spring rate checker, which is in the plans.
Thanks for the input.
RR
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BillyShope
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That is certainly the obvious solution. On braking, the majority of the weight transfer will go to the LF, helping the load situation at the front and tending to loosen the car on turn entry.Racer Roy wrote: I have also been reading about having the LF spring stiffer than the RF....
On turn exit, the majority of the weight transfer will go to the LR, easing the load situation at the rear and tending to tighten the car on exit.
Thanks for the input so far...
After working on the car for a couple of weks, I have an update for you all.
The changes we have made were to go to a stiffer RR spring, and a heavier damped RR shock, and to open up the sway bar preload some. This has succesfully loosened the car on entry(heavier rebound delays weight transfer to the front), and also helped control the loose off condition. It still pushes some, and at times will be very loose, but it is still fast, and we can go through traffic much better now.
One interesting side effect has been that the car is extremely fast for about two laps, and once heat gets in the tires, it levels off some. Until the tires get heated up I can pass anyone at all, anywhere on the track.
I am just killing guys on restarts, but lose the ability to hold the outside groove after a few laps. Thoughts??
I will continue to update as we make changes and complete races.
Thanks again
RR
After working on the car for a couple of weks, I have an update for you all.
The changes we have made were to go to a stiffer RR spring, and a heavier damped RR shock, and to open up the sway bar preload some. This has succesfully loosened the car on entry(heavier rebound delays weight transfer to the front), and also helped control the loose off condition. It still pushes some, and at times will be very loose, but it is still fast, and we can go through traffic much better now.
One interesting side effect has been that the car is extremely fast for about two laps, and once heat gets in the tires, it levels off some. Until the tires get heated up I can pass anyone at all, anywhere on the track.
I am just killing guys on restarts, but lose the ability to hold the outside groove after a few laps. Thoughts??
I will continue to update as we make changes and complete races.
Thanks again
RR
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ROMPRON
REAR STEER
Have u checked the rear steer in your car. If your rear end is steering to the left your car will push in the middle. Im assuming this is still a 4 link car. Square your car and make sure your lower control arm are as level as possable.
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MikeLeone
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tidbits
I'm chiming in late on this one but here are some thoughts that poping into my head as I was reading the posts:
A push going in, then loose coming off is sometimes caused by the front suspension overtraveling and binding-up or bottoming-out under braking. You end up de-wedging and lossening up the car to try to compensate, that is why when the weight comes off the nose you are left with a vry loose car.
This si common on cars with stock shocks mounted in the stock location. All the convential wisdom (softer front springs, sogfter sway bar, etc.) only makes the problem worse. The stiffer shock may have helped because it kept the weight from binding the nose as quickly, usually the stiffer shock only makes the push happen deeper in the corner (and not for as long because you are back on the gas sooner).
I'd assemble the RF suspension without the sring in there and see if the shock (or anything else) is binding.
As far as going away after a few laps that is often caused by stock type shocks heating up and going away or you could have a real unbalalnced racecar the works one tire (usually the RF) much harder than the rest. Big time teams do that on purpsoe for time trials and then revert back to a more balanced setup for the feature.
good luck
A push going in, then loose coming off is sometimes caused by the front suspension overtraveling and binding-up or bottoming-out under braking. You end up de-wedging and lossening up the car to try to compensate, that is why when the weight comes off the nose you are left with a vry loose car.
This si common on cars with stock shocks mounted in the stock location. All the convential wisdom (softer front springs, sogfter sway bar, etc.) only makes the problem worse. The stiffer shock may have helped because it kept the weight from binding the nose as quickly, usually the stiffer shock only makes the push happen deeper in the corner (and not for as long because you are back on the gas sooner).
I'd assemble the RF suspension without the sring in there and see if the shock (or anything else) is binding.
As far as going away after a few laps that is often caused by stock type shocks heating up and going away or you could have a real unbalalnced racecar the works one tire (usually the RF) much harder than the rest. Big time teams do that on purpsoe for time trials and then revert back to a more balanced setup for the feature.
good luck
I can add some more information after trying a few things.
We were using tires with more tread on them... Goodyear RS-A's with about half tread. This worked well on the right front and was showing good wear characteristics, however, the RR was chunking apart, and showing heavy wear in the center of the tire.
Last weekend, I installed a softer RR shock, and changed both rear tires to ones with nearly no tread left at all. They also had no stagger whatsoever. (we only had about a 1/2 inch before)
This really worked, the car was only slightly tight on entry, and only a bit loose on exit. We could drive anywhere, and won the feature, our first of the year.
It is peculiar that zero stagger works on a track that "should" need 2 1/2 inches, but I'll take a win any way I can.
Thanks for the input, everyone.
RR
We were using tires with more tread on them... Goodyear RS-A's with about half tread. This worked well on the right front and was showing good wear characteristics, however, the RR was chunking apart, and showing heavy wear in the center of the tire.
Last weekend, I installed a softer RR shock, and changed both rear tires to ones with nearly no tread left at all. They also had no stagger whatsoever. (we only had about a 1/2 inch before)
This really worked, the car was only slightly tight on entry, and only a bit loose on exit. We could drive anywhere, and won the feature, our first of the year.
It is peculiar that zero stagger works on a track that "should" need 2 1/2 inches, but I'll take a win any way I can.
Thanks for the input, everyone.
RR
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awesomebill
Re: Stock Car Handling Question
Put a rear sway bar back on the car and get it as big as you can. Also, install a front sway bar as big as you can. The dirt cars like this tend to roll over when entering the corner and then you apply throttle and it just kills the r/side springs especially the r/r when the drive shaft trys to climb the pinion. This will loosen the tightest r/r settting up even with a loose track. I have found when running these style cars to get the car as level as possible entering the corners. Kinda like a late model and then go from there. Hope this helps as a cheap and very useful chassi tuning agent. We have kinda the same bar in the modifieds, its just adjustable. You can also make this one adjustable and really get her in and out of the corners. Remember, the less time you stay in the corner usually makes a very fast car.Racer Roy wrote:Hello everyone:
I would like some opinions about how I can improve our Monte Carlo stock car.
We are racing on a 1/4 mile paved oval and are currently having the problem of a push on entry, but the car gets loose as soon as the throttle is picked up.
We are running all stock suspension, and the car has had all of the typical "street stock mods" done to it, but we are still very limited for actual adjustability.
I am just looking for general suggestions about this situation. How would you go about correcting a push without making the loose on exit worse?
Please feel free to make suggestions based on a late model chassis, like turning a jack bolt, for example. I can adapt my thinking to what I have available to me, in terms of a stock suspension.
I should note, we are already quite fast so I am looking to make subtle improvements, not having to fix a huge problem.
An example of this was last night where we finished the feature 2nd, but were faster than the winner and could get up to his door on the outside, but just could not get enough of an advantage on corner entry, and were just too loose on exit to get clear of him.
Thanks for the input.
RR
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nlmsc33
roy you have to start with a square car as mentioned.
there are 3 parts of a turn.
entry. middle. exit.
remember this little sayin.
wedge in, stagger in the middle, bar off.
you have to fix the push in 1st.
in your original post you said it gets loose after pushing.
that's called snap oversteer.
when the front end finally bites, sheer momentum automatically sends the rear end out.
if the front end rolls in smoothly the loose off will disappear.
damn near anybody can get a car to turn in.
getting it to STOP turning is the trick.
i usually ran 46-48% bite(wedge) & 6-8* of caster split with the l/f at <-1>*.
you want around 2 1/2 in of r/f shock travel & all the r/r you can get.
i wouldn't have to turn the car in. i just stopped holding it straight & it would fall in there.
the neg caster on the l/f will help pin the l/f tire to the ground.
run the biggest front bar you can find(with about 1 1/2 inches of slack in the chain).
when the setup is close you can pick the gas up about a 1/3 of the way, right before the apex, to settle the chassis.
that's where the stagger helps rotate the car to the apex.
all of this has to be done VERY smoothly by the driver or the car will spin out.
a soft r/r spring helps a bunch. if you can work the shocks go soft r/r compression & tight l/r rebound.
once the car rolls over hard at the apex the nose should be pointed slightly towards the inside wall & you'll HAVE to get on the gas to drive the nose out.
it should be on the bar pretty good by now & you should be able to start laying on the gas which will try to pick the l/f up & load the front bar harder, tightening the car up even more.
from there you should be able to flatfoot it out of the corner as these cars don't make that much hp.
this kind of setup let's you turn under cars going in the corner, draw even with them thru the center & pick the gas up earlier than them.
sometimes you gotta use the other guy up a little on exit but hey, rubbin is racin.
i won a lotta races with this kind of setup.
i hope that helps some...mel
there are 3 parts of a turn.
entry. middle. exit.
remember this little sayin.
wedge in, stagger in the middle, bar off.
you have to fix the push in 1st.
in your original post you said it gets loose after pushing.
that's called snap oversteer.
when the front end finally bites, sheer momentum automatically sends the rear end out.
if the front end rolls in smoothly the loose off will disappear.
damn near anybody can get a car to turn in.
getting it to STOP turning is the trick.
i usually ran 46-48% bite(wedge) & 6-8* of caster split with the l/f at <-1>*.
you want around 2 1/2 in of r/f shock travel & all the r/r you can get.
i wouldn't have to turn the car in. i just stopped holding it straight & it would fall in there.
the neg caster on the l/f will help pin the l/f tire to the ground.
run the biggest front bar you can find(with about 1 1/2 inches of slack in the chain).
when the setup is close you can pick the gas up about a 1/3 of the way, right before the apex, to settle the chassis.
that's where the stagger helps rotate the car to the apex.
all of this has to be done VERY smoothly by the driver or the car will spin out.
a soft r/r spring helps a bunch. if you can work the shocks go soft r/r compression & tight l/r rebound.
once the car rolls over hard at the apex the nose should be pointed slightly towards the inside wall & you'll HAVE to get on the gas to drive the nose out.
it should be on the bar pretty good by now & you should be able to start laying on the gas which will try to pick the l/f up & load the front bar harder, tightening the car up even more.
from there you should be able to flatfoot it out of the corner as these cars don't make that much hp.
this kind of setup let's you turn under cars going in the corner, draw even with them thru the center & pick the gas up earlier than them.
sometimes you gotta use the other guy up a little on exit but hey, rubbin is racin.
i won a lotta races with this kind of setup.
i hope that helps some...mel
You present some good points.
The biggest limiter in this whole deal is that the track limits the amount of RF negative camber we can have. (1 3/4" in on the top sidewall, measured with a square. Bill... no rear bars either)
They have determined that this is a good way to keep the fast guys in check and not have junior in a bone stock Monte Carlo get lapped 5 times in a 30 lap race.
We have been making small adjustments weekly with this car, and we have had sucess, winning a feature, several heats, and are 2nd in points.
We have come to feel that the car is sprung too stiff overall, as the rear has only about 2 inches of wheel travel. The front is much harder to measure with the stock located shock, but it looks to be dead flat in the corners, which I feel is adding to the push in. With the camber limit, I am hesitant to let the RF roll over any more for fear of burning up the sidewall.
I have plans to improve the camber curves over the winter to try and get as much negative gain as I can so that RF is totally used in the middle of the corners.
I am not about to make a major spring change with only a few events left this year,(we are fast) but I am going to measure all of the springs over the winter so I KNOW what we have for next year.
Thanks for the input.
RR
The biggest limiter in this whole deal is that the track limits the amount of RF negative camber we can have. (1 3/4" in on the top sidewall, measured with a square. Bill... no rear bars either)
They have determined that this is a good way to keep the fast guys in check and not have junior in a bone stock Monte Carlo get lapped 5 times in a 30 lap race.
We have been making small adjustments weekly with this car, and we have had sucess, winning a feature, several heats, and are 2nd in points.
We have come to feel that the car is sprung too stiff overall, as the rear has only about 2 inches of wheel travel. The front is much harder to measure with the stock located shock, but it looks to be dead flat in the corners, which I feel is adding to the push in. With the camber limit, I am hesitant to let the RF roll over any more for fear of burning up the sidewall.
I have plans to improve the camber curves over the winter to try and get as much negative gain as I can so that RF is totally used in the middle of the corners.
I am not about to make a major spring change with only a few events left this year,(we are fast) but I am going to measure all of the springs over the winter so I KNOW what we have for next year.
Thanks for the input.
RR