Dan Barton wrote:Ron, it would have to be an older pro stock crank because a 4.900 bore space crank I believe has the #2 and #4 mains spaced differently than a 4.840 bore space block... but I may be mistaken. Dan
Your right Dan, 4.900 will not work. I was referring to the 4.84 bore spacing blocks. There's gotta be a bunch floating around out there. Some are being used up in the B/A and AE/D class's but I bet if you called some of the high end race shops you'd find some at a resonable price compared to new. There's also the 409 cranks(3.50), but that might be a streach to make the CI. I'd for sure build to the max CI for class.
Sounds like a fun project and a class ready for a rude awakening.
Blessings......Ron Clevenger.
Creekside Racing Ministry
John 14:6
Ron Clevenger
CSU Gas Dominator ProCharger nonintercooled
Top Eliminator West http://www.topeliminatorwest.net
Steve Morris http://www.stevemorrisengines.com
6.49@219mph (still tunning)
Any of the B/A or A/ED stuff that I have seen or worked on has been 4.900 bore space also, but a few phone calls wouldnt hurt! I believe I would just have one built by Bryant or Winberg and have a Honda rod pin put on it and get exactly what you need instead of a compromise... I personally disagree with not going less than 3.750 stroke but I certainly could be wrong, I would use the larger bore and the 3.640 stroke and deck the block as much as is practical, go with a 55mm cam tunnel and get the lift to .900 or a little higher, 282@.050 on the intake and 300@.050 on the exhaust, 15 to 1 compression, .0415 diamond lapped top ring, .043 napier second ring and a 3mm low tension oil ring, a big oil pan, lots of vacuum and the best set of cylinder heads that I could do with a highly modified super victor intake and I believe it could make close to 2.0 horsepower per inch and 1.45 torque per inch or so. I personally believe that the other guys building their engines the other way would be in for a rude awakening! I had a few calls a few months ago about doing heads and manifolds for a few of these guys but nothing ever came from it! May have been scared off by the price but, I HATE porting cast iron heads!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I typically only do them now when its mandated by the rules or a friend wants some work done, other than that they can usually find someone who will port them for about a third of what I charge... Whenever I get a potential customer discussing his project and the word "budget" comes up more than a few times I end up telling them that they may be talking to the wrong person! Unless your looking for that last little bit and are willing to pay for it you would probably be better off finding a younger and less experienced head porter who can give you 85 to 90% of the quality port job at a substantially less price. Dan
PFC1 wrote:, cam numbers @.050 should be around 285ish and 296ish with a 112-113 or so lobe seperation. At least .850 intake and .800 or so on the ex.
I'd go a different route.
A puller engine runs differently from a drag or circle track engine, so we go with a completely different cam. It's kinda like a jet boat engine, where you want to make peak torque and peak HP very close to each other.
I'd like to make my peak torque at 7200, but with my own class rules of 473" limit and OEM iron heads... I really have not figured out how to do that. So if you tighten the two up your only going to lower your rpm band and peak. No!?
PFC1 wrote:I'd like to make my peak torque at 7200, but with my own class rules of 473" limit and OEM iron heads... I really have not figured out how to do that. So if you tighten the two up your only going to lower your rpm band and peak. No!?
Definitely use the short stroke, big bore route. Iwould use the RHS 320 head fully ported. I do these heads a lot . They will outperform and flow more than the 360 head. Just did a set that went on a pull truck engine, 509ci, iron 320 heads, 1 4150 carb, no vacuum pump, 875hp, 696tq.
Do you know what kind of flow numbers they put out, and at what lift?
Have you or anyone else on here had any experience with the DART or Merlin 345's or the RHS 360cc?
Here are some of the rules:
-Engine limit - 480 C.I. limit (5 C.I. leeway).
-Headers allowed (fenderwell exit)
-Dont have to run mufflers
-Cast iron block
-After market cast iron heads allowed. Any cast iron head accepting stock valve train components within 3 degrees of stock valve angle.
-Any camshaft, single carb - except Holley Dominator, or dominator based carb. Must be of stock configurations - tunnel rams, pro rams, etc. are NOT permitted. Any cast aluminum intake directly accepting single 4150 carb. No weld on flanges or adapters. Can not be capable of accepting a dominator carb. No sheet metal intakes. No blowers or hemi heads allowed. Engines must be naturally aspirated.
-Maximum tire size 35xI2.50/15 or 16.5"
As far as what others are running, the top two trucks were Ford powered.
Other info:
Stock trans case with Profab internals. Have to run stock transfer case. Rockwell rear with I believe 620 gears. (4X4)
PFC1 wrote:I'd like to make my peak torque at 7200, but with my own class rules of 473" limit and OEM iron heads... I really have not figured out how to do that. So if you tighten the two up your only going to lower your rpm band and peak. No!?
Educate me, Bret
I'll send you a PM on Monday.
CamKing could you send me the info as well? I love to learn this stuff to.
If you must run a 4150 carb...I would certainly not go any shorter than a 3.75 stroke. I might even lengthen that a bit. I might also change my mind from the SuperVictor though I would have to check my options a bit more.
New to the site...(and don't mean to hi-jack this post, but maybe my scenario and questions will help it?...)
My pulling association rules state the following:
- 475 cube limit
- .650 cam lift limit at retainer...no duration limit.
- any aluminum intake except, tunnel rams, sheet metal etc...
- naturally aspirated, single carb.
- iron heads...after market OK.
- factory block (CHEVY)
- no compression limit.
- SFI balancer and flywheel
- No carb limit (single only)
The competition is running around 700HP @ 7500 RPM...
This is what I have so far...
- 470 cube bottom end (int balanced) on 4-bolt main chevy block cast #361959
- Callies Stealth forged crank
- Oliver forged I-beam rods 4" stroke
- JE forged 13-1 pistons (at 118 I assume)
- Merlin 320 iron heads. cleaned up...325 int. checked with water/122 chamber after clean up.
- Edelbrock Victor-R intake
- 1050 Dominator carb
What would be the best cam, lifter, push rod, rocker...to use in this combo for pulling in the 7500 RPM range? I am at 7000 feet elevation, but would pull at an average of 5000 feet.
I'm using a SM 465...4-speed tranny. (4-low 2nd gear)
and a NP205 T-Case
Dan Barton wrote:I personally think that I would recommend a 4.600 bore X 3.625 stroke... Stroke doesnt guarantee tq, but it may very well dictate at what rpm peak tq is made! I believe pfc1 is correct on most other things too! Angle mill the heads as far as you can and move it over with offset dowels or by other means, I would use 5/16 titanium valves and keep everything on that side of the valvetrain as light as possible and use no less than a .135 wall 3/8 pushrod on it, bigger if you can get it in there. Like Ed said... you can get pistons custom oversized to whatever dimention you desire, as long as rings are available, so a 4.602, 4.604 or a 4.605 piston is no problem to get and rings typically for a 4.600 bore come in a +.005 and that could give you 2 to 3 overbores right there and still be able to get you the desired ring gap required, and would still leave you under the cubic inch limit. I believe if it is done right the engine should make about 680 torque around 6200 rpm or so and 940 horsepower at around 8000 rpm. The big bore and short stroke has many benefits... airflow is one and being able to better control windage is another. Just my opinions! Good luck, Dan
I am with Dan on this one. A long stroke does NOT guarantee a lot of TQ especially in the RPM range he runs in. A smaller bore will choke a good head and decrease VE and TQ. If you can get your piston speeds in the 5000+FPM range at peak power or 600rpm over peak power then go for it. The 3.625 stroke at 8500-9000rpm fits perfectly. Plus, people forget the bigger bore will increase VE significantly and therefore increase TQ by leaps and bounds. You cant drag the engine down like you can with 4.250 stroke but then again, why in the world would you want to! raise the power band up and make some POWER! You will have to gear it up to 9000rpm. At Reher Morrison we have built many puller engines just like this and every one of them has been a killer.
Darin Morgan
-Induction Research and Development
-EFI Calibration and Tuning
Reher Morrison Racing Engines
1120 Enterprise Place
Arlington Texas 76001
Phone 817-467-7171
Cell 682-559-0321
http://www.rehermorrison.com
Just a note about the carb rule. For those of you wanting to work in the grey area a little, Braswell has a 4150 style carb with spread throttle bores that will take up to something like a 1.790 throttle blade. You might want to check with them for details.
Dan Barton wrote:
I personally think that I would recommend a 4.600 bore X 3.625 stroke... Stroke doesnt guarantee tq, but it may very well dictate at what rpm peak tq is made! I believe pfc1 is correct on most other things too! Angle mill the heads as far as you can and move it over with offset dowels or by other means, I would use 5/16 titanium valves and keep everything on that side of the valvetrain as light as possible and use no less than a .135 wall 3/8 pushrod on it, bigger if you can get it in there. Like Ed said... you can get pistons custom oversized to whatever dimention you desire, as long as rings are available, so a 4.602, 4.604 or a 4.605 piston is no problem to get and rings typically for a 4.600 bore come in a +.005 and that could give you 2 to 3 overbores right there and still be able to get you the desired ring gap required, and would still leave you under the cubic inch limit. I believe if it is done right the engine should make about 680 torque around 6200 rpm or so and 940 horsepower at around 8000 rpm. The big bore and short stroke has many benefits... airflow is one and being able to better control windage is another. Just my opinions! Good luck, Dan
Darin wrote:
I am with Dan on this one. A long stroke does NOT guarantee a lot of TQ especially in the RPM range he runs in. A smaller bore will choke a good head and decrease VE and TQ. If you can get your piston speeds in the 5000+FPM range at peak power or 600rpm over peak power then go for it. The 3.625 stroke at 8500-9000rpm fits perfectly. Plus, people forget the bigger bore will increase VE significantly and therefore increase TQ by leaps and bounds. You cant drag the engine down like you can with 4.250 stroke but then again, why in the world would you want to! raise the power band up and make some POWER! You will have to gear it up to 9000rpm. At Reher Morrison we have built many puller engines just like this and every one of them has been a killer.
They way the economy is now, is there such a thing as finding a used engine out there that someone needs to sell like Dan and Darin described?
