Hello all, I did search and found one good thread on water jacket filling with some good input but I wanted more ideas on the street-strip motor end of it.
I'm looking for input, opinions, advice from all the seasoned engine
builders here.
Hard Blok short fill on a street-strip Late Chevy LT1 383-388-396
stroker. (6800rpm shift points, 500hp natural, +150hp nitrous jets)
Is there some bennefit in doing this?
Are there disadvantages, cons?
Right now I'm clearancing a 95 chevy caprice LT1 block for a 3.800" stroke crank and began to wonder if a bit of stiffening and damping at the bottom of the cylinders might be a good thing now that the block has so much more metal ground away.
I can only imagin that Hard Blok would stablize the block and dampen
vibs and help prevent cracks when the tune up is "off".
I imagine that oil temps might raise a bit due to less cooling and
then there is about 10 lb of extra weight. But that sounds like a
small price to pay for if Hard Blok does as advertised.
Will Hard Blok hurt the engine if it sees a lot of street miles?
Let me know your experience with this.
thanks,
Karl Ellwein
water jacket fill for street-strip motor. pros-cons
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Karl Ellwein
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Hard Blok
I am doing the same.
I have had to grind away the bottom of my bore to clear the H Beam rods and have gone well into the water jacket.
I have used a product called Z Spar to repair the hole and have short filled the blok with Hard Blok.
I am of the understanding that it helps support the bore and gives a better finish when honing.
One thing i would like to know though is how do u tell, you dont hone a blok then mic it up and then hone it again after you fill it. And how do u tell it suports the bore better.
Wonder if anyone knows
Do u have a link to site you found.
Trev
I have had to grind away the bottom of my bore to clear the H Beam rods and have gone well into the water jacket.
I have used a product called Z Spar to repair the hole and have short filled the blok with Hard Blok.
I am of the understanding that it helps support the bore and gives a better finish when honing.
One thing i would like to know though is how do u tell, you dont hone a blok then mic it up and then hone it again after you fill it. And how do u tell it suports the bore better.
Wonder if anyone knows
Do u have a link to site you found.
Trev
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Karl Ellwein
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Thanks for the reply Trev,
Let me add more questions to the thread.
I have not hit the water jacket yet, but if I grind more and do get too thin or break thru, what would a proper repair entail? (I have to grind about 0.020" more).
Is it as simple as doing a short fill of water jacket filler, (Hard Blok) and then coating that exposed area with some sort of epoxy?
Actually I'm very anxious to hear if there are disadvantages to doing a short fill for a drag racing engine that will see lots of street service. I need to send my block in for machine work this week and I need to make a decision to fill or not to fill.
Karl
Let me add more questions to the thread.
I have not hit the water jacket yet, but if I grind more and do get too thin or break thru, what would a proper repair entail? (I have to grind about 0.020" more).
Is it as simple as doing a short fill of water jacket filler, (Hard Blok) and then coating that exposed area with some sort of epoxy?
Actually I'm very anxious to hear if there are disadvantages to doing a short fill for a drag racing engine that will see lots of street service. I need to send my block in for machine work this week and I need to make a decision to fill or not to fill.
Karl
I have no other experience with filled blocks, just the one i own. I can tell you that my stock 400 block, stroked to 420 with a half fill has been no problem for 3 years. It is a street- strip car that sees 2000-3000 miles a year on street, and 200-300 passes at the track, it would be more if i did not live in Ohio and have to put it away for 4 months. I have drven it for hours on the freeway, and hours in city trafic, it has never had any problem at all. My 420 was 11.0:1, solid roller, brodix track1, running 11.00s. I had mine filled before i did my grinding. This engine is now a 434.
A bad day of racing is better than a good day of work
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Karl Ellwein
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thanks for the reply 70MC,
Although it's not the same engine, I think the engine I'm working on will see similar application like yours. Mostly stip duty with maybe 2000 miles per year on the street. (solid roller).
So you filled yours 1/2 way? I'm only thinking of a very short fill.
I have posted on every message board I can think of and have had no replies, (accept for here). So it looks like there are no cons to filling a street-strip motor.
I have normally very cool oil temps and sometimes too cool. So that is why I'm thinking that water jacket fill cannot possibly be bad for this application.
Just finished my grinding for rod clearance and did not hit water jacket. Think I should still do a short fill for the stability and damping bennefit?
Karl
Although it's not the same engine, I think the engine I'm working on will see similar application like yours. Mostly stip duty with maybe 2000 miles per year on the street. (solid roller).
So you filled yours 1/2 way? I'm only thinking of a very short fill.
I have posted on every message board I can think of and have had no replies, (accept for here). So it looks like there are no cons to filling a street-strip motor.
I have normally very cool oil temps and sometimes too cool. So that is why I'm thinking that water jacket fill cannot possibly be bad for this application.
Just finished my grinding for rod clearance and did not hit water jacket. Think I should still do a short fill for the stability and damping bennefit?
Karl
fill
Karl, even though u didnt hit water you should probably check how much metal is left. Get a centre punch and give it a good wack and see if u break thru. No good honing it and putting it together if you only have a few thou of metal left anyway
And do a half fill up to the bottom of the welch plug hole and make sure you dont do your hone before you do the fill
Trev
And do a half fill up to the bottom of the welch plug hole and make sure you dont do your hone before you do the fill
Trev
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ozrace
There is an epoxy product called Epirez which is excellent in blocks, and no need to seal it.
Filling a street/strip block to at least 1/2 way doesn't seem to cause any cooling or other problems - I know of many that have been done.
If bore support is the aim, you will need at least a 1/2 fill.
It is a good idea to fill the block and then leave it for some time before machining if possible - several weeks.
Filling a street/strip block to at least 1/2 way doesn't seem to cause any cooling or other problems - I know of many that have been done.
If bore support is the aim, you will need at least a 1/2 fill.
It is a good idea to fill the block and then leave it for some time before machining if possible - several weeks.
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ozrace
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Karl Ellwein
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A big thank yo for the info guys.
Trev, I kinda have been just "tapping" in the grind area. Maybe I can "hear" if it's thin. But your suggestion for a more forceful whap is a great bit of advice. Thanks. I could pay for a Ultrasound test.
Sounds like a 1/2 fill is needed to gain some bennefit. The short fill I was thinking of is will just reinforce or seal the areas that might be too thin now?
I will heed the advice about letting the fill set for a week at least. Thanks,
Karl Ellwein
Trev, I kinda have been just "tapping" in the grind area. Maybe I can "hear" if it's thin. But your suggestion for a more forceful whap is a great bit of advice. Thanks. I could pay for a Ultrasound test.
Sounds like a 1/2 fill is needed to gain some bennefit. The short fill I was thinking of is will just reinforce or seal the areas that might be too thin now?
I will heed the advice about letting the fill set for a week at least. Thanks,
Karl Ellwein
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Darin Morgan
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Joined: 02 Nov 2004
Posts: 64
Location: Arlington Texas
Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 6:53 pm Post subject: The Real stuff
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The best block filler on the planet is called Embeco 885. We have used it for 20 years and it coefficient of expansion is close to cast iron it will NEVER pull away from the walls or give you distortion problems and it dissipates heat a lot better than anything else I have seen or used.. Its a metallic grout that was designed in the 60s for the Saturn 5 launch pad to hold the steal girders. The girders would get so hot they would blow out the regular concrete so they formulated this stuff. It has metal suspended in the mixture so its tricky to get mixed right and you don't want to rattle the block to much. Mix it thick and it will work perfect. You can by a 100 pound bag for what 5 gallons of the other stuff costs and I am not to sure that's its not the same stuff! You can pick it up or order it just about anywhere. It used to be the BIG secret the Super Stock guys used many years ago.
I would never rock a modern after market block. There cylinder walls are plenty rigid. If you have to use a stock block for drag racing its easy power. If you do what we call a low fill like less than half way up and use a good oil cooler you can drive it on the street. I had friend of mine who had a Camero that was drove on the street with a half fill for years and even drove it back and forth to Texas a few time from Kansas. The Oil cooler is a must though. Without it, your sure to burn it up. I have seen as much as 20 HP with a full fill ( right up the water hole but no higher) just so you have about one inch of water flowing around the top of the cylinders. If you have never done it before yourself, refer it to someone who has! Its a very quick way to ruin a good block if you don't know what your doing. If you have a block with blind bolt holes and you fill it just a little to high, you cut off all water circulation and then you have and expensive boat anchor.
_________________
Darin Morgan
R&D-Cylinder Head Dept.
Reher-Morrison Racing Engines
1120 Enterprise Place
Arlington Texas 76001
817-467-7171
FAX-468-3147
[quote
After reading this from Darin I filled mine. If Darin says it I would take it for truth!
Show Guest
Joined: 02 Nov 2004
Posts: 64
Location: Arlington Texas
Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 6:53 pm Post subject: The Real stuff
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The best block filler on the planet is called Embeco 885. We have used it for 20 years and it coefficient of expansion is close to cast iron it will NEVER pull away from the walls or give you distortion problems and it dissipates heat a lot better than anything else I have seen or used.. Its a metallic grout that was designed in the 60s for the Saturn 5 launch pad to hold the steal girders. The girders would get so hot they would blow out the regular concrete so they formulated this stuff. It has metal suspended in the mixture so its tricky to get mixed right and you don't want to rattle the block to much. Mix it thick and it will work perfect. You can by a 100 pound bag for what 5 gallons of the other stuff costs and I am not to sure that's its not the same stuff! You can pick it up or order it just about anywhere. It used to be the BIG secret the Super Stock guys used many years ago.
I would never rock a modern after market block. There cylinder walls are plenty rigid. If you have to use a stock block for drag racing its easy power. If you do what we call a low fill like less than half way up and use a good oil cooler you can drive it on the street. I had friend of mine who had a Camero that was drove on the street with a half fill for years and even drove it back and forth to Texas a few time from Kansas. The Oil cooler is a must though. Without it, your sure to burn it up. I have seen as much as 20 HP with a full fill ( right up the water hole but no higher) just so you have about one inch of water flowing around the top of the cylinders. If you have never done it before yourself, refer it to someone who has! Its a very quick way to ruin a good block if you don't know what your doing. If you have a block with blind bolt holes and you fill it just a little to high, you cut off all water circulation and then you have and expensive boat anchor.
_________________
Darin Morgan
R&D-Cylinder Head Dept.
Reher-Morrison Racing Engines
1120 Enterprise Place
Arlington Texas 76001
817-467-7171
FAX-468-3147
[quote
After reading this from Darin I filled mine. If Darin says it I would take it for truth!
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Karl Ellwein
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Thanks for pasting that info. I actually did read that in it's original thread about water jacket filling. Good stuff.
It takes a long time for things to sink into my knogin but after re-reading that thread it does say
So that is another vote for Yes, do fill this street-strip motor.
Karl
It takes a long time for things to sink into my knogin but after re-reading that thread it does say
If you have to use a stock block for drag racing its easy power.
So that is another vote for Yes, do fill this street-strip motor.
Karl
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airflowdevelop
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Karl,
A little note on the 327 casting.... We have seen little to no distortion on a small bore (.040 ~ .060). The cylinder walls are ~ .100 thicker and taper out .150 on the bottom compared to a traditional GM SBC. This is very similar to the technology used in the aftermarket blocks today. In your application, If your numbers are accurate, the testing we have done would indicate little to no improvement....and YES their are many cons for your application!
Remember the 327 casting is desiged for reverse cooling. The inlet flow is through the front of the block, and over half of the discharge is between cylinders 3/5 and 4/6. The discharge temp is already very high in these areas (even with an iron head), in addition to the fact that this is normally a higher temp location in a SBC. With a half fill (the minimum required for any change IMO) you are disrupting the flow to the front cylinders, which are already low.
Are you running a knock sensor...you can't with fill, unless you figure the resonance difference.
Remember the main web on the 327 casting is superior to all other traditional factory SBC. 900+ HP factory 2 bolt blocks are not uncommon..
If you get anywhere near water.... I will be suprised. We have done some 4" work with huge junk chinese rods...no problem...
If you were using a traditional SBC block...then yes...DO IT. You are not. IMO, at your HP level (how many hundreds...if not thousands of 500HP lt-1's are running around....) You are fine!
Also...just a recommendation... Don't worry about the stroke, until you get a set of heads that can support what you currently have. factory shortblocks are more than capable of the task at hand.... A good set of iron heads (expensive) or aluminum (if you can get the compression) is where to start. We also see that the heavier F cars run out of plenum pretty quick on the factory intake. I am sure a b-body would do it quicker!!
Sorry for rambling guys....
Dennis
A little note on the 327 casting.... We have seen little to no distortion on a small bore (.040 ~ .060). The cylinder walls are ~ .100 thicker and taper out .150 on the bottom compared to a traditional GM SBC. This is very similar to the technology used in the aftermarket blocks today. In your application, If your numbers are accurate, the testing we have done would indicate little to no improvement....and YES their are many cons for your application!
Remember the 327 casting is desiged for reverse cooling. The inlet flow is through the front of the block, and over half of the discharge is between cylinders 3/5 and 4/6. The discharge temp is already very high in these areas (even with an iron head), in addition to the fact that this is normally a higher temp location in a SBC. With a half fill (the minimum required for any change IMO) you are disrupting the flow to the front cylinders, which are already low.
Are you running a knock sensor...you can't with fill, unless you figure the resonance difference.
Remember the main web on the 327 casting is superior to all other traditional factory SBC. 900+ HP factory 2 bolt blocks are not uncommon..
If you get anywhere near water.... I will be suprised. We have done some 4" work with huge junk chinese rods...no problem...
If you were using a traditional SBC block...then yes...DO IT. You are not. IMO, at your HP level (how many hundreds...if not thousands of 500HP lt-1's are running around....) You are fine!
Also...just a recommendation... Don't worry about the stroke, until you get a set of heads that can support what you currently have. factory shortblocks are more than capable of the task at hand.... A good set of iron heads (expensive) or aluminum (if you can get the compression) is where to start. We also see that the heavier F cars run out of plenum pretty quick on the factory intake. I am sure a b-body would do it quicker!!
Sorry for rambling guys....
Dennis
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Karl Ellwein
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Thanks for the reply Dennis, and I'm glad you did ramble so that I can read as much info as possible. You do have a great amount of experience with this 327 casting so I'm all ears.
Maybe that is why I have not found the water jacket in my grinding and I did have to do a lot of grinding.
I'm going to have my machine shop guy evaluate how thick or thin the grind are is. (no sonic test available in this area and the guy that I used to go to, Terry Samakow, just got bought out by Yates and is now working for them so he left town with all his equipment that I usta-coulda borrowed).
I'm glad I got some "con' opinions on this. It seems that the opinion is that there will be no performance bennefit unless I do a 1/2 fill. And then if I do a short fill it would only be to fix a water jacket grind thru.
And these LT1 castings, (#327), are thicker at the bottom then older SBC?
And yes, I'm still reverse cooled.
I do not run knock sensors due to solid roller cam but point well taken about that. Thanks.
This should be a good learning thread for me and for others that are sorta "hobby" engine builders.
Thanks,
Karl Ellwein
4000lb 95 Impala SS
10.6 @ 126 on 150hp jets N2O
11.4 @ 118 natural 383 LT1
Maybe that is why I have not found the water jacket in my grinding and I did have to do a lot of grinding.
I'm going to have my machine shop guy evaluate how thick or thin the grind are is. (no sonic test available in this area and the guy that I used to go to, Terry Samakow, just got bought out by Yates and is now working for them so he left town with all his equipment that I usta-coulda borrowed).
I'm glad I got some "con' opinions on this. It seems that the opinion is that there will be no performance bennefit unless I do a 1/2 fill. And then if I do a short fill it would only be to fix a water jacket grind thru.
And these LT1 castings, (#327), are thicker at the bottom then older SBC?
And yes, I'm still reverse cooled.
I do not run knock sensors due to solid roller cam but point well taken about that. Thanks.
This should be a good learning thread for me and for others that are sorta "hobby" engine builders.
Thanks,
Karl Ellwein
4000lb 95 Impala SS
10.6 @ 126 on 150hp jets N2O
11.4 @ 118 natural 383 LT1
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airflowdevelop
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If you blow through, I've got some stuff that will fix you up...or you could plug it.
The web is vertical of where you are removing material. I have never seen stress problems with the 327's.
I will note that I have had some EARLY 327 castings (circa 92-93) that had some problems in the pan rail. appeared to be a casting flaw. Fixed easily with a plug....the last one is about 5 years old, and that block is still going strong. I prefer a late 94 or 95 block. Have had a few .100 over...no issues. Their has been a rumor about a parting line at the bottom of the cylinders due to the extreme taper. It seems that some people have gone through at this point...although I have not proven this.
Again though.. I am assuming you are sticking with a relatively small bore, you will be cherry.
It is a shame bowman is no longer in Maryland. He moved up my way now...which is a little of a haul for you.
Thanks
Dennis
The web is vertical of where you are removing material. I have never seen stress problems with the 327's.
I will note that I have had some EARLY 327 castings (circa 92-93) that had some problems in the pan rail. appeared to be a casting flaw. Fixed easily with a plug....the last one is about 5 years old, and that block is still going strong. I prefer a late 94 or 95 block. Have had a few .100 over...no issues. Their has been a rumor about a parting line at the bottom of the cylinders due to the extreme taper. It seems that some people have gone through at this point...although I have not proven this.
Again though.. I am assuming you are sticking with a relatively small bore, you will be cherry.
It is a shame bowman is no longer in Maryland. He moved up my way now...which is a little of a haul for you.
Thanks
Dennis
MORE BLOK FILL STUFF
Ok so we have all decided that we want to blok fill a block
What is the best way to do this
For me i do the following steps
1. Acid bath the blok for 24 hrs
2. Plug any holes caused by grinding for clearance with Z SPAR or Manley A & B Epoxy
3. Rotate the Block intul the deck surface is square
4. Mix up the block filler and pour in until level with the bottom of the welch plugs
5. Leave overnight and repeat for the other bank.
I have been thinking about not repairing any grind thru holes and pouring first. I have been thinking that i will maks up a little area over the grind thru holes so when i do the fill it will ensure that the blok filler fills completely and runs out a little for the grind thru marks
I am actually doing another block either tomorrow or the next day so if anyone is interested I can take some pics and then e-mail them if your interested.
Trev
What is the best way to do this
For me i do the following steps
1. Acid bath the blok for 24 hrs
2. Plug any holes caused by grinding for clearance with Z SPAR or Manley A & B Epoxy
3. Rotate the Block intul the deck surface is square
4. Mix up the block filler and pour in until level with the bottom of the welch plugs
5. Leave overnight and repeat for the other bank.
I have been thinking about not repairing any grind thru holes and pouring first. I have been thinking that i will maks up a little area over the grind thru holes so when i do the fill it will ensure that the blok filler fills completely and runs out a little for the grind thru marks
I am actually doing another block either tomorrow or the next day so if anyone is interested I can take some pics and then e-mail them if your interested.
Trev