Loss of torque with EFI?

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Mike Laws
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Re: Loss of torque with EFI?

Post by Mike Laws »

GARY C wrote: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:30 pm
Mike Laws wrote: Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:04 pm
Walter R. Malik wrote: Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:10 am

The carb cure for the time frame spent is to further develop or just bring back the "feedback" electronic, dashboard adjustable carburetors. Same time frame for changing required air/fuel ratios.
https://www.theengineblock.com/kn-elect ... ssic-ride/

I've got experience with both. K&N's deal equals a feedback carburetor on steroids.
When you add the cost of K&N's ECI on top of a custom carb the cost of a true FI system doesn't look so bad.
Most of K&N's market already has a carburetor, so no need to buy another.

In your comparison would it be fair to say that the cost of a custom EFI system should be included if comparing to a custom carb?
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Re: Loss of torque with EFI?

Post by GARY C »

Mike Laws wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:57 am
GARY C wrote: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:30 pm
Mike Laws wrote: Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:04 pm

https://www.theengineblock.com/kn-elect ... ssic-ride/

I've got experience with both. K&N's deal equals a feedback carburetor on steroids.
When you add the cost of K&N's ECI on top of a custom carb the cost of a true FI system doesn't look so bad.
Most of K&N's market already has a carburetor, so no need to buy another.

In your comparison would it be fair to say that the cost of a custom EFI system should be included if comparing to a custom carb?
True, the EFI would cost more.
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Re: Loss of torque with EFI?

Post by Newold1 »

I am curious on this new K&N carburetor injection how does the K&N kit take the 5-8 psi fuel feed system only needed for a carburetor and increase the pressure to feed let's say two 30 lb. fuel injectors at the same time?
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Re: Loss of torque with EFI?

Post by Mike Laws »

Newold1 wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:55 pm I am curious on this new K&N carburetor injection how does the K&N kit take the 5-8 psi fuel feed system only needed for a carburetor and increase the pressure to feed let's say two 30 lb. fuel injectors at the same time?
The kit is a fuel trim or supplement system and accounts for less than 5% of total fuel used. (Depending on how far lean the carb is set in relation to the AFR target setting you input into the software. It might be 1% if the carb calibration is very close to the ECI/AFR setting. The % increases as the lean to rich delta is increased.) Injector duty cycle and a few other adjustable settings also come into play. The software values are adjusted with a laptop on the street [and on the fly] while test driving or on the track or a dyno using the ET slip data acq such as Racepak or dyno data acq.

So if you have an electric pump with a base pressure of 30 psi, you would tee into the pressure line before the carb regulator, sending 30 psi to the injectors. If you're running a mechanical pump, you would be limited to the pressure that the pump puts out. Since the system accounts for such a small part of the fuel demand, it doesn't really matter. I've run the ECI system from 5-30 psi on the same 600 hp engine/same day and there was no difference in performance. (Vacuum is your friend in both supply and atomization.)
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Re: Loss of torque with EFI?

Post by Brian P »

There are two ways that a "feedback carburetor" can work. Evidently that system works by relying on the base carb settings being lean, and then adding more fuel. The other way - the traditional one -relies on the base carb settings being rich, and then bleeding air in strategically (usually this was done into the metering circuits or emulsion tubes back in the day - not simply bypassing the throttle).

The nature of my real job automatically makes me think FMEA. What happens if the automatic trimming system fails. If the system relies on base carb settings being lean, and aux fuel delivery fails (either due to loss of fuel supply or loss of injector signal or who knows what), then it reverts to base carb settings ... lean. The traditional way of doing this reverts to base carb settings ... rich. Seems to me that the traditional (air bleed) method is safer, especially if you are using this in a somewhat high performance application.

Feedback carbs way back in the early days of 3-way catalytic converters basically just took the oxygen sensor signal, processed it a little bit (electronics were not very sophisticated back then), and applied that to the solenoid(s) for the auxiliary air bleeds. The base carb settings were such that at wide open throttle, the engine got the slightly-rich mixture that it needed even with the air bleed in effect. With cold engine, before the oxygen sensor gave a signal, it just ran at the base carb settings, slightly rich. If the circuits or solenoids failed in the other direction (commanding it lean), the air bleed had little enough effect that the engine would still run (although perhaps a bit rough).

Feedback carburetors were not a thing done for "high performance". It was strictly for emissions. The early approach of using EGR for NOx reduction and air-injection and an oxidizing catalyst for CO and HC had reached its limits. Three-way catalysts were needed, and they needed the engine to run very close to stoichiometric.

Feedback carbs were from the era of sub-200-horsepower Corvettes - the dark ages of emission-strangulation. Or my buddy Al's mid-eighties Dodge van with a 95 hp emissions-strangled single-barrel-carb slant six.

I had a couple of vehicles from that era. The vacuum hose routing diagram looked like a bowl of spaghetti.

There is no valid reason why you would want to do something like this in this day and age.
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Re: Loss of torque with EFI?

Post by ClassAct »

Mike Laws wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:36 pm
Newold1 wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:55 pm I am curious on this new K&N carburetor injection how does the K&N kit take the 5-8 psi fuel feed system only needed for a carburetor and increase the pressure to feed let's say two 30 lb. fuel injectors at the same time?
The kit is a fuel trim or supplement system and accounts for less than 5% of total fuel used. (Depending on how far lean the carb is set in relation to the AFR target setting you input into the software. It might be 1% if the carb calibration is very close to the ECI/AFR setting. The % increases as the lean to rich delta is increased.) Injector duty cycle and a few other adjustable settings also come into play. The software values are adjusted with a laptop on the street [and on the fly] while test driving or on the track or a dyno using the ET slip data acq such as Racepak or dyno data acq.

So if you have an electric pump with a base pressure of 30 psi, you would tee into the pressure line before the carb regulator, sending 30 psi to the injectors. If you're running a mechanical pump, you would be limited to the pressure that the pump puts out. Since the system accounts for such a small part of the fuel demand, it doesn't really matter. I've run the ECI system from 5-30 psi on the same 600 hp engine/same day and there was no difference in performance. (Vacuum is your friend in both supply and atomization.)


Mike do you have a web site or something where I can see what you are doing???
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Re: Loss of torque with EFI?

Post by Mike Laws »

All good points. Please see my thoughts.
There are two ways that a "feedback carburetor" can work. Evidently that system works by relying on the base carb settings being lean, and then adding more fuel. The other way - the traditional one -relies on the base carb settings being rich, and then bleeding air in strategically (usually this was done into the metering circuits or emulsion tubes back in the day - not simply bypassing the throttle).
Agree. There were a few obscure 'feedback' carburetors that aimed for the target AFR and attempted to adjust lean or rich, but nothing of any success.
The nature of my real job automatically makes me think FMEA. What happens if the automatic trimming system fails. If the system relies on base carb settings being lean, and aux fuel delivery fails (either due to loss of fuel supply or loss of injector signal or who knows what), then it reverts to base carb settings ... lean. The traditional way of doing this reverts to base carb settings ... rich. Seems to me that the traditional (air bleed) method is safer, especially if you are using this in a somewhat high performance application.
When thinking FMEA, it seems that EFI would be the last option one would choose. The automatic trimming system on the K&N unit is basically a 'mini-EFI' with an ECU. With fewer sensors needed it is less subject to failure than a regular EFI system. If an EFI system fails, the vehicle is basically stranded. Not so with the ECI unit and a carburetor. And fwiw, it's important to recognize the degree of "lean" that an ECI user would set the carb. The most I've leaned a carb in testing is 1. in AFR, so if target is 13.0, I've leaned to 14.0. At this number, the car runs fine, other than an occasional light surge at certain throttle positions with no increase in water temp. ECI "influence" is minimal, therefore a system failure is certainly not catastrophic. So if I have a street rod and the ECI fails, I drive home on the carb-only. If I have an EFI failure, I'm calling a tow truck. And if I have a drag car and experience an ECI failure, I richen the carb and continue. If I have an EFI failure, I'm trailered until proper diagnosis and replacement.
Feedback carbs way back in the early days of 3-way catalytic converters basically just took the oxygen sensor signal, processed it a little bit (electronics were not very sophisticated back then), and applied that to the solenoid(s) for the auxiliary air bleeds. The base carb settings were such that at wide open throttle, the engine got the slightly-rich mixture that it needed even with the air bleed in effect. With cold engine, before the oxygen sensor gave a signal, it just ran at the base carb settings, slightly rich. If the circuits or solenoids failed in the other direction (commanding it lean), the air bleed had little enough effect that the engine would still run (although perhaps a bit rough).
Like you describe here, the base carb settings at WOT are set for a slightly rich mixture and the ECI is not in use. There is a programmable cold start feature on the ECI that works well. You lean the idle circuit slightly and program the cold start based on duty cycle and time. Once the O2 sensor is warmed and operating, the target AFR for that RPM range is in effect.
Feedback carburetors were not a thing done for "high performance". It was strictly for emissions. The early approach of using EGR for NOx reduction and air-injection and an oxidizing catalyst for CO and HC had reached its limits. Three-way catalysts were needed, and they needed the engine to run very close to stoichiometric.
Yessir. I have not experimented with the ECI using an 'emissions' mindset, but it would be fun. It will never match the OEM/EFI systems for emissions, but it would be an interesting project to spend a little time on.
Feedback carbs were from the era of sub-200-horsepower Corvettes - the dark ages of emission-strangulation. Or my buddy Al's mid-eighties Dodge van with a 95 hp emissions-strangled single-barrel-carb slant six.
And 4-cylinder Chevy LUV trucks!
I had a couple of vehicles from that era. The vacuum hose routing diagram looked like a bowl of spaghetti.
Yessir. I 'converted' more than a few to non-feedback and the top of the engine compartment cleaned up nicely with the spaghetti gone.
There is no valid reason why you would want to do something like this in this day and age.
The ECI is targeted at those who want to continue running a carburetor. For street rods it's period-correctness, reliability and simplicity, for racers it's performance, reliability and simplicity. Cost savings is a factor in both. It is not intended to replace EFI for the intended EFI market.
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Re: Loss of torque with EFI?

Post by Mike Laws »

ClassAct wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2019 2:34 pm
Mike Laws wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:36 pm
Newold1 wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:55 pm I am curious on this new K&N carburetor injection how does the K&N kit take the 5-8 psi fuel feed system only needed for a carburetor and increase the pressure to feed let's say two 30 lb. fuel injectors at the same time?
The kit is a fuel trim or supplement system and accounts for less than 5% of total fuel used. (Depending on how far lean the carb is set in relation to the AFR target setting you input into the software. It might be 1% if the carb calibration is very close to the ECI/AFR setting. The % increases as the lean to rich delta is increased.) Injector duty cycle and a few other adjustable settings also come into play. The software values are adjusted with a laptop on the street [and on the fly] while test driving or on the track or a dyno using the ET slip data acq such as Racepak or dyno data acq.

So if you have an electric pump with a base pressure of 30 psi, you would tee into the pressure line before the carb regulator, sending 30 psi to the injectors. If you're running a mechanical pump, you would be limited to the pressure that the pump puts out. Since the system accounts for such a small part of the fuel demand, it doesn't really matter. I've run the ECI system from 5-30 psi on the same 600 hp engine/same day and there was no difference in performance. (Vacuum is your friend in both supply and atomization.)


Mike do you have a web site or something where I can see what you are doing???
K&N is going through a website makeover so I hope this works: https://www.knfilters.com/instructions/20-0001_inst.pdf
Mike Laws Performance
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