Let's discuss GM's new RUMORED Big Block reintroduction!
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Re: Let's discuss GM's new RUMORED Big Block reintroduction!
Turbos are great for making power and torque on engines but for the manufacturer they add pretty stiff incremental cost increases.
They require more expensive exhaust systems and associated hardware. The turbos themselves are also moderately expensive.
The turbochargers still tend to start to make their horsepower and torque increases in the 2000-3500 rpm ranges and for the duty range I think the manufacturers are looking for in these bigger inch engines is in the 1500-2000 rpm ranges where they spend a lot of time in when cruising in the upper gears of these new 8-10 speed transmissions which tend to be overdriven gear ranges. This is where current expensive diesel engines tend to provide there recognized advantage at minimum throttle uses.
You have to remember this is a diesel replacement engine in reality and the manufacturers also want SIMPLE and more INEXPENSIVE!
They require more expensive exhaust systems and associated hardware. The turbos themselves are also moderately expensive.
The turbochargers still tend to start to make their horsepower and torque increases in the 2000-3500 rpm ranges and for the duty range I think the manufacturers are looking for in these bigger inch engines is in the 1500-2000 rpm ranges where they spend a lot of time in when cruising in the upper gears of these new 8-10 speed transmissions which tend to be overdriven gear ranges. This is where current expensive diesel engines tend to provide there recognized advantage at minimum throttle uses.
You have to remember this is a diesel replacement engine in reality and the manufacturers also want SIMPLE and more INEXPENSIVE!
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Re: Let's discuss GM's new RUMORED Big Block reintroduction!
Exactly, people can't seem to get this into their heads. Don't want more torque, don't want more horsepower, don't really give a damn about any of this other stuff. It's an item to make money. You need to listen to what the little birds tell you, Which means cheap up front, cheap to operate, simple(cheap!) to keep running, cheap to fix, cheap cheap cheap!!!!Keith Morganstein wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:38 pm The Diesel torque and fuel mileage won’t be matched by the gas job, BUT as said before in this and other threads, commercial truck consumers are getting very weary of tow jobs, downtime, repairs, high initial cost and fuel cost and DEF.
Here's a disgusting insider fact. Nobody actually cares what the driver's want, as long as they keep driving the trucks. More torque, horsepower etc is bad, because then they hot-rod like assclowns and break more stuff. This isn't being insulting, this is being experienced.
Diesels were good before the .gov mandated all this crap which makes them not cheap. S/F....Ken M
Re: Let's discuss GM's new RUMORED Big Block reintroduction!
This ^^ is it !Newold1 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:58 am Turbos are great for making power and torque on engines but for the manufacturer they add pretty stiff incremental cost increases.
They require more expensive exhaust systems and associated hardware. The turbos themselves are also moderately expensive.
The turbochargers still tend to start to make their horsepower and torque increases in the 2000-3500 rpm ranges and for the duty range I think the manufacturers are looking for in these bigger inch engines is in the 1500-2000 rpm ranges where they spend a lot of time in when cruising in the upper gears of these new 8-10 speed transmissions which tend to be overdriven gear ranges. This is where current expensive diesel engines tend to provide there recognized advantage at minimum throttle uses.
You have to remember this is a diesel replacement engine in reality and the manufacturers also want SIMPLE and more INEXPENSIVE!
I'm headed into my 4th decade of loading trucks heavy to work , torque off-idle and at cruise is exactly what's needed. One ton trucks are expensive enough with a gas engine - it's ridiculous the add-on for a diesel unless you're pulling extreme loads and/or crossing the country constantly. Most don't need a diesel and don't put 400,000+ miles on them. The extra $12,000.00 will buy alot of gasoline, and you'll pay it a little at a time instead of at monthly payment time !
Re: Let's discuss GM's new RUMORED Big Block reintroduction!
Keep in mind that all the diesels are turbo charged.Newold1 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:58 am Turbos are great for making power and torque on engines but for the manufacturer they add pretty stiff incremental cost increases.
They require more expensive exhaust systems and associated hardware. The turbos themselves are also moderately expensive.
The turbochargers still tend to start to make their horsepower and torque increases in the 2000-3500 rpm ranges and for the duty range I think the manufacturers are looking for in these bigger inch engines is in the 1500-2000 rpm ranges where they spend a lot of time in when cruising in the upper gears of these new 8-10 speed transmissions which tend to be overdriven gear ranges. This is where current expensive diesel engines tend to provide there recognized advantage at minimum throttle uses.
You have to remember this is a diesel replacement engine in reality and the manufacturers also want SIMPLE and more INEXPENSIVE!
I guess it depends on how you do it, In 2009, Ford modified an experimental 3.5 L V6 EcoBoost engine with both E85 direct injection and gasoline indirect fuel injection, which achieved a brake mean effective pressure of 395 psi (27 bar), which translates to roughly 553 pound-feet (750 N⋅m) of torque and 316 horsepower (236 kW)@3000 rpm (flat torque curve from 1500–3000 rpm).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_EcoBoost_engine
Compared to more than twice the displacement N/A gas.
8.1 L Vortec 8100 V8 340 hp (254 kW) @ 4200 RPM 455 lb⋅ft (617 N⋅m) @ 3200 RPM
2004–2006 330 hp (246 kW) @ 4200 RPM 450 lb⋅ft (610 N⋅m) @ 3200 RPM
2001–2002 w/ LQY 270 hp (201 kW) @ 3600 RPM 400 lb⋅ft (542 N⋅m) @ 1600 RPM
2002–2005 w/ LRW 325 hp (242 kW) @ 4000 RPM 450 lb⋅ft (610 N⋅m) @ 2800 RPM
2002–2006 w/ LRZ 295 hp (220 kW) @ 3600 RPM 440 lb⋅ft (597 N⋅m) @ 3200 RPM
They really need to look at natural gas and propane for a diesel fuel replacement... But they wont!
Please Note!
THE ABOVE POST IN NO WAY REFLECTS THE VIEWS OF SPEED TALK OR IT'S MEMBERS AND SHOULD BE VIEWED AS ENTERTAINMENT ONLY...Thanks, The Management!
THE ABOVE POST IN NO WAY REFLECTS THE VIEWS OF SPEED TALK OR IT'S MEMBERS AND SHOULD BE VIEWED AS ENTERTAINMENT ONLY...Thanks, The Management!
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Re: Let's discuss GM's new RUMORED Big Block reintroduction!
GM offers factory OEM LPG and CNG vehicles. Nobody else does?GARY C wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:01 amKeep in mind that all the diesels are turbo charged.Newold1 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:58 am Turbos are great for making power and torque on engines but for the manufacturer they add pretty stiff incremental cost increases.
They require more expensive exhaust systems and associated hardware. The turbos themselves are also moderately expensive.
The turbochargers still tend to start to make their horsepower and torque increases in the 2000-3500 rpm ranges and for the duty range I think the manufacturers are looking for in these bigger inch engines is in the 1500-2000 rpm ranges where they spend a lot of time in when cruising in the upper gears of these new 8-10 speed transmissions which tend to be overdriven gear ranges. This is where current expensive diesel engines tend to provide there recognized advantage at minimum throttle uses.
You have to remember this is a diesel replacement engine in reality and the manufacturers also want SIMPLE and more INEXPENSIVE!
I guess it depends on how you do it, In 2009, Ford modified an experimental 3.5 L V6 EcoBoost engine with both E85 direct injection and gasoline indirect fuel injection, which achieved a brake mean effective pressure of 395 psi (27 bar), which translates to roughly 553 pound-feet (750 N⋅m) of torque and 316 horsepower (236 kW)@3000 rpm (flat torque curve from 1500–3000 rpm).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_EcoBoost_engine
Compared to more than twice the displacement N/A gas.
8.1 L Vortec 8100 V8 340 hp (254 kW) @ 4200 RPM 455 lb⋅ft (617 N⋅m) @ 3200 RPM
2004–2006 330 hp (246 kW) @ 4200 RPM 450 lb⋅ft (610 N⋅m) @ 3200 RPM
2001–2002 w/ LQY 270 hp (201 kW) @ 3600 RPM 400 lb⋅ft (542 N⋅m) @ 1600 RPM
2002–2005 w/ LRW 325 hp (242 kW) @ 4000 RPM 450 lb⋅ft (610 N⋅m) @ 2800 RPM
2002–2006 w/ LRZ 295 hp (220 kW) @ 3600 RPM 440 lb⋅ft (597 N⋅m) @ 3200 RPM
They really need to look at natural gas and propane for a diesel fuel replacement... But they wont!
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Re: Let's discuss GM's new RUMORED Big Block reintroduction!
Natural gas and propane are notoriously hard on engines. Initial cost is higher, so is repair. They might be good fuels, but they're a hard sell.
And then there's fuel logistics. Those fuels rarely appeal to anyone outside of fleets.
Realize that fleet sales generate woefully small per unit profits, and the instant that you have warranty, the profit is gone. Further, the major profit is in the finance contract. Fleets don't often use OE financing, further reducing the profits.
The people wanting gasoline engines in trucks that are 10,000 GVW or more want inexpensive, simple, reliable, and reasonably powerful engines. They don't want crazy tech stuff, they don't want superchargers, either. They want a rock solid big V8, with good torque from 1500 up to 3500, and they don't give a damn about power above 5500, or even 5000, they don't want anyone spinning their stuff that hard. Anything above 10 MPG with any load on it is fine with them. They'd rather pay less for the simpler truck and buy more fuel.
And then there's fuel logistics. Those fuels rarely appeal to anyone outside of fleets.
Realize that fleet sales generate woefully small per unit profits, and the instant that you have warranty, the profit is gone. Further, the major profit is in the finance contract. Fleets don't often use OE financing, further reducing the profits.
The people wanting gasoline engines in trucks that are 10,000 GVW or more want inexpensive, simple, reliable, and reasonably powerful engines. They don't want crazy tech stuff, they don't want superchargers, either. They want a rock solid big V8, with good torque from 1500 up to 3500, and they don't give a damn about power above 5500, or even 5000, they don't want anyone spinning their stuff that hard. Anything above 10 MPG with any load on it is fine with them. They'd rather pay less for the simpler truck and buy more fuel.
Re: Let's discuss GM's new RUMORED Big Block reintroduction!
The gasoline is too cheap in US.. In Europe even the idea of 8-litre V-8 gasoline engine is ridiculous! All the real work vehicles from small Van to real heavy duty rigs are diesel;all turbo.Strange that German and others make 4-valve turbodiesels;they want to lose money? No American rigs (or other real work vehicles) not seen on the roads.Not even Russians drive nothing but Volvo,Mercedes,Scania,Iveco..
OK,I put my flame proof suit on
OK,I put my flame proof suit on
"when uncomptent order unwilling to do unnecsessary the probablity of failure is high"
Re: Let's discuss GM's new RUMORED Big Block reintroduction!
Thats why Americans fight so hard to keep America free of Gov control although we are slowly loosing that battle, I expect the next administration will implement a steep gas tax like they have wanted to do for years. Think how cheep it would be here if they removed the .90 per gallon tax on it now.Morgo wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:05 pm The gasoline is too cheap in US.. In Europe even the idea of 8-litre V-8 gasoline engine is ridiculous! All the real work vehicles from small Van to real heavy duty rigs are diesel;all turbo.Strange that German and others make 4-valve turbodiesels;they want to lose money? No American rigs (or other real work vehicles) not seen on the roads.Not even Russians drive nothing but Volvo,Mercedes,Scania,Iveco..
OK,I put my flame proof suit on
Please Note!
THE ABOVE POST IN NO WAY REFLECTS THE VIEWS OF SPEED TALK OR IT'S MEMBERS AND SHOULD BE VIEWED AS ENTERTAINMENT ONLY...Thanks, The Management!
THE ABOVE POST IN NO WAY REFLECTS THE VIEWS OF SPEED TALK OR IT'S MEMBERS AND SHOULD BE VIEWED AS ENTERTAINMENT ONLY...Thanks, The Management!
Re: Let's discuss GM's new RUMORED Big Block reintroduction!
The turbocharged DI engines currently in development at most OEs are achieving over 30 bar BMEP at 2000 RPM and developing 150-200 hp/L depending upon setup. The Mercedes M133 is a good example of this, 360 lb-ft from 2.0 liters at 2250 RPM. It also makes over 400 hp.GARY C wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:01 amKeep in mind that all the diesels are turbo charged.Newold1 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:58 am Turbos are great for making power and torque on engines but for the manufacturer they add pretty stiff incremental cost increases.
They require more expensive exhaust systems and associated hardware. The turbos themselves are also moderately expensive.
The turbochargers still tend to start to make their horsepower and torque increases in the 2000-3500 rpm ranges and for the duty range I think the manufacturers are looking for in these bigger inch engines is in the 1500-2000 rpm ranges where they spend a lot of time in when cruising in the upper gears of these new 8-10 speed transmissions which tend to be overdriven gear ranges. This is where current expensive diesel engines tend to provide there recognized advantage at minimum throttle uses.
You have to remember this is a diesel replacement engine in reality and the manufacturers also want SIMPLE and more INEXPENSIVE!
I guess it depends on how you do it, In 2009, Ford modified an experimental 3.5 L V6 EcoBoost engine with both E85 direct injection and gasoline indirect fuel injection, which achieved a brake mean effective pressure of 395 psi (27 bar), which translates to roughly 553 pound-feet (750 N⋅m) of torque and 316 horsepower (236 kW)@3000 rpm (flat torque curve from 1500–3000 rpm).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_EcoBoost_engine
Compared to more than twice the displacement N/A gas.
8.1 L Vortec 8100 V8 340 hp (254 kW) @ 4200 RPM 455 lb⋅ft (617 N⋅m) @ 3200 RPM
2004–2006 330 hp (246 kW) @ 4200 RPM 450 lb⋅ft (610 N⋅m) @ 3200 RPM
2001–2002 w/ LQY 270 hp (201 kW) @ 3600 RPM 400 lb⋅ft (542 N⋅m) @ 1600 RPM
2002–2005 w/ LRW 325 hp (242 kW) @ 4000 RPM 450 lb⋅ft (610 N⋅m) @ 2800 RPM
2002–2006 w/ LRZ 295 hp (220 kW) @ 3600 RPM 440 lb⋅ft (597 N⋅m) @ 3200 RPM
They really need to look at natural gas and propane for a diesel fuel replacement... But they wont!
I suspect that HD trucks will move to something like a 4L V8 with a single turbocharger in the valley (exhaust in the valley), and they'll make 650-700 lb-ft at a very low RPM, maybe 1500-1700. They'll probably make 500-ish horsepower because the turbo will be sized too small to really rev. Light duty trucks like F-150s will move to 3L 6 cylinders making 500-ish HP and 500-ish lb-ft.
Re: Let's discuss GM's new RUMORED Big Block reintroduction!
The 2019 1/2 ton offers a 2.7 turbo 310 hp and 348 ft lbs at 1500 rpm with an 8 speed.LoganD wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:31 pmThe turbocharged DI engines currently in development at most OEs are achieving over 30 bar BMEP at 2000 RPM and developing 150-200 hp/L depending upon setup. The Mercedes M133 is a good example of this, 360 lb-ft from 2.0 liters at 2250 RPM. It also makes over 400 hp.GARY C wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:01 amKeep in mind that all the diesels are turbo charged.Newold1 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:58 am Turbos are great for making power and torque on engines but for the manufacturer they add pretty stiff incremental cost increases.
They require more expensive exhaust systems and associated hardware. The turbos themselves are also moderately expensive.
The turbochargers still tend to start to make their horsepower and torque increases in the 2000-3500 rpm ranges and for the duty range I think the manufacturers are looking for in these bigger inch engines is in the 1500-2000 rpm ranges where they spend a lot of time in when cruising in the upper gears of these new 8-10 speed transmissions which tend to be overdriven gear ranges. This is where current expensive diesel engines tend to provide there recognized advantage at minimum throttle uses.
You have to remember this is a diesel replacement engine in reality and the manufacturers also want SIMPLE and more INEXPENSIVE!
I guess it depends on how you do it, In 2009, Ford modified an experimental 3.5 L V6 EcoBoost engine with both E85 direct injection and gasoline indirect fuel injection, which achieved a brake mean effective pressure of 395 psi (27 bar), which translates to roughly 553 pound-feet (750 N⋅m) of torque and 316 horsepower (236 kW)@3000 rpm (flat torque curve from 1500–3000 rpm).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_EcoBoost_engine
Compared to more than twice the displacement N/A gas.
8.1 L Vortec 8100 V8 340 hp (254 kW) @ 4200 RPM 455 lb⋅ft (617 N⋅m) @ 3200 RPM
2004–2006 330 hp (246 kW) @ 4200 RPM 450 lb⋅ft (610 N⋅m) @ 3200 RPM
2001–2002 w/ LQY 270 hp (201 kW) @ 3600 RPM 400 lb⋅ft (542 N⋅m) @ 1600 RPM
2002–2005 w/ LRW 325 hp (242 kW) @ 4000 RPM 450 lb⋅ft (610 N⋅m) @ 2800 RPM
2002–2006 w/ LRZ 295 hp (220 kW) @ 3600 RPM 440 lb⋅ft (597 N⋅m) @ 3200 RPM
They really need to look at natural gas and propane for a diesel fuel replacement... But they wont!
I suspect that HD trucks will move to something like a 4L V8 with a single turbocharger in the valley (exhaust in the valley), and they'll make 650-700 lb-ft at a very low RPM, maybe 1500-1700. They'll probably make 500-ish horsepower because the turbo will be sized too small to really rev. Light duty trucks like F-150s will move to 3L 6 cylinders making 500-ish HP and 500-ish lb-ft.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVr9V72xurA
Here is the test drive and spec video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVr9V72xurA
Last edited by GARY C on Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Please Note!
THE ABOVE POST IN NO WAY REFLECTS THE VIEWS OF SPEED TALK OR IT'S MEMBERS AND SHOULD BE VIEWED AS ENTERTAINMENT ONLY...Thanks, The Management!
THE ABOVE POST IN NO WAY REFLECTS THE VIEWS OF SPEED TALK OR IT'S MEMBERS AND SHOULD BE VIEWED AS ENTERTAINMENT ONLY...Thanks, The Management!
Re: Let's discuss GM's new RUMORED Big Block reintroduction!
So...our gas is too cheap. But, yours is priced just right?
Re: Let's discuss GM's new RUMORED Big Block reintroduction!
Obviously it's been demonstrated with a lot of V-8 variants that 350-400 cubic inch N/A truck engines can make 350-450 lb/ft. of torque from about 2200-3500 rpms. That's not enough for the medium and heavy duty gas engine truck users especially for heavy loads and towing.
There is no reason a well designed 500 cubic inch simple OHV simple push rod V-8 engine cannot make 500-600 lb/ft. of torque and better numbers at 1500 rpms than most 350-400CI truck engines make at 2800-3500 rpms. That's really whats needed to lower the cost of these bigger CI N/A engines and get the users to make that choice over the more expensive turbo-diesels.
There is no reason a well designed 500 cubic inch simple OHV simple push rod V-8 engine cannot make 500-600 lb/ft. of torque and better numbers at 1500 rpms than most 350-400CI truck engines make at 2800-3500 rpms. That's really whats needed to lower the cost of these bigger CI N/A engines and get the users to make that choice over the more expensive turbo-diesels.
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Re: Let's discuss GM's new RUMORED Big Block reintroduction!
I highly doubt the sole reason is because American cars have gas engines. I'd bet that cost of the car itself has a bigger impact than type of fuel. If I could buy a Russian car for 5000 rubles or an American car for 50k, which do you think I'm going to buy as a poor ass Russian with no money? Be sensible. Even a middle class citizen from any country in Europe would be smart enough to realize they can buy a non-import for a lot less than an American imported car. The logistics involve much more than fuel type, I assure you.Morgo wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:05 pm The gasoline is too cheap in US.. In Europe even the idea of 8-litre V-8 gasoline engine is ridiculous! All the real work vehicles from small Van to real heavy duty rigs are diesel;all turbo.Strange that German and others make 4-valve turbodiesels;they want to lose money? No American rigs (or other real work vehicles) not seen on the roads.Not even Russians drive nothing but Volvo,Mercedes,Scania,Iveco..
OK,I put my flame proof suit on
Re: Let's discuss GM's new RUMORED Big Block reintroduction!
We went from discussing American big block V-8's to discussing Russian Yugo's
Boy can we digress !!!
Boy can we digress !!!
The Older I Get, The Dumber I Get
Re: Let's discuss GM's new RUMORED Big Block reintroduction!
It seems to me that Europe is in the process of reducing/eliminating the amount of diesel vehicles on their roads.