Thinking out loud. Billet head with water jackets.

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SchmidtMotorWorks
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Re: Thinking out loud. Billet head with water jackets.

Post by SchmidtMotorWorks » Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:02 pm

Nefario wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:42 pm
Is the 70's furnace brazing of 2 horizontally sectioned cylinder heads in Pro Stock was not uncommon to create tall ports. Also I-6 cylinder heads have been made by brazing sections of other better heads. With CNC technology I could see a layered and brazed cast iron construction being doable as a hobby project but not commercially viable - cast iron tooling stock is available. I'm also not sure that large scale furnace brazing is readily available anymore. There are also solders for aluminum but I'd be concerned about thermal stresses causing splits.

http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/5125/img0003fi.jpg
I worked on Pro Stock heads in the 80's that were made from many inserted and welded pieces and, NOTHING about that experience is attractive or practical in present day manufacturing.
http://www.schmidtmotorworks.com Aerospace Machine Work: Prototypes, Tooling, Molds.

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Re: Thinking out loud. Billet head with water jackets.

Post by numboltz » Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:43 am

Twisting this cold weather daydream a bit, how about making a billet cylinder head
then DRILLING the coolant passages afterwords? Seems to me there was/is a Japanese
diesel tank engine made this way? Maybe it was the one with oil cooled block area and
"water" cooled heads? I had some documentation on it, now sadly lost so [warning] going
from memory here. [ducks, runs]

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Re: Thinking out loud. Billet head with water jackets.

Post by Nefario » Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:39 am

TMSJoe wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:29 am
I was pondering the other day about billet heads.
How 'bout your billet be styrofoam?! :D Lost foam casting is common in automotive but can also be used for low volume special apps like engine development and F1. And can be done DIY.

I've read of people making core boxes from wood, urethane, or 3D printing and using Great Stuff (or similar) to make foam pieces that are assembled to make a complete consumable foam pattern. You'd need to learn how to get good pattern definition (no surface voids) if you used a liquid foam material.

This guy http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.p ... .1275.html used 3D Printing to directly investment cast some fairly simple castings. Taking this pretty far from machined billet I know....

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Re: Thinking out loud. Billet head with water jackets.

Post by SchmidtMotorWorks » Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:27 pm

Nefario wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:39 am
TMSJoe wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:29 am
I was pondering the other day about billet heads.
How 'bout your billet be styrofoam?! :D Lost foam casting is common in automotive but can also be used for low volume special apps like engine development and F1. And can be done DIY.

I've read of people making core boxes from wood, urethane, or 3D printing and using Great Stuff (or similar) to make foam pieces that are assembled to make a complete consumable foam pattern. You'd need to learn how to get good pattern definition (no surface voids) if you used a liquid foam material.

This guy http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.p ... .1275.html used 3D Printing to directly investment cast some fairly simple castings. Taking this pretty far from machined billet I know....
If you want to do just 1, have sand molds printed:

https://hoosierpattern.com/additive-man ... d-printing

Anything more than that, conventional sand casting is the way to go.
http://www.schmidtmotorworks.com Aerospace Machine Work: Prototypes, Tooling, Molds.

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Re: Thinking out loud. Billet head with water jackets.

Post by stealth » Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:51 pm

Sounds like reinventing the wheel with a piece of string....
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.

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Re: Thinking out loud. Billet head with water jackets.

Post by SchmidtMotorWorks » Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:43 pm

numboltz wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:43 am
Twisting this cold weather daydream a bit, how about making a billet cylinder head
then DRILLING the coolant passages afterwords? Seems to me there was/is a Japanese
diesel tank engine made this way? Maybe it was the one with oil cooled block area and
"water" cooled heads? I had some documentation on it, now sadly lost so [warning] going
from memory here. [ducks, runs]
Try doing the CAD work, it is just a matter of time until you recognize how impractical it is.
http://www.schmidtmotorworks.com Aerospace Machine Work: Prototypes, Tooling, Molds.

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Re: Thinking out loud. Billet head with water jackets.

Post by Erland Cox » Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:38 pm


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Re: Thinking out loud. Billet head with water jackets.

Post by jsgarage » Sat Dec 08, 2018 3:41 am

I sort of remember Dan Gurney's shop having some alloy 3-valve heads built that flexed the combustion chambers enough to crack during a race. Ford's early Clevelands did the same, in cast iron for NASCAR. Those guys reportedly knew what they were doing, too. By the time you suss all this out the hard way, Essinger's offering will be up to $8500 and I'm afraid you still won't have a viable race piece. Good luck.

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Re: Thinking out loud. Billet head with water jackets.

Post by Schurkey » Sat Dec 08, 2018 5:14 am

Cast or machine the interior of the head, make the "water jacket" by bolting/gluing sheetmetal to the outside? The voids between the casting and the exterior sheet metal becomes the coolant cavity.

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Re: Thinking out loud. Billet head with water jackets.

Post by TMSJoe » Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:41 pm

Nefario wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:39 am
TMSJoe wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:29 am
I was pondering the other day about billet heads.
How 'bout your billet be styrofoam?! :D Lost foam casting is common in automotive but can also be used for low volume special apps like engine development and F1. And can be done DIY.

I've read of people making core boxes from wood, urethane, or 3D printing and using Great Stuff (or similar) to make foam pieces that are assembled to make a complete consumable foam pattern. You'd need to learn how to get good pattern definition (no surface voids) if you used a liquid foam material.

This guy http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.p ... .1275.html used 3D Printing to directly investment cast some fairly simple castings. Taking this pretty far from machined billet I know....
Many of my fantasies revolve around equipment I own or have access to. I built a 351C ford using used NASCAR rockers from Ebay. I built rocker stands to adapt existing rockers to this engine. It was fun and educational, plus I got paid.... sort of. I sold him shaft rockers for the price of a stud girdle + rockers. It worked out and I learned something. The true goal.

I am bothered by the "new generation" of "not motor heads" that the world is producing these days. The home billet head would likely be a 1 cylinder head adapted to a lawn mower engine. Possibly a junior dragster block. Maybe the project could the the Pinewood derby of modern times. Like I said, just thinking out loud......

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Re: Thinking out loud. Billet head with water jackets.

Post by digger » Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:47 pm

i say give it a go.

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Re: Thinking out loud. Billet head with water jackets.

Post by Old as Dirt » Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:55 pm

Just fooling around, seeing if I could pull it off.. Aisin Blower, Polaris 34mm Carb, home made stainless induction w/blowoff incase of a backfire.. and billet head with roller rockers.. high lift cam, billet rod, billet flywheel on a 200cc Honda Clone..
Actually ran decent.. idled like a little Alcohol Funny Car.. never could get rid of the surging at idle, but it did clean up as the RPM's got above 2000.
Thought TMS Joe might get a kick out of this.. :mrgreen:



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Re: Thinking out loud. Billet head with water jackets.

Post by Old as Dirt » Sat Dec 08, 2018 9:33 pm

It got a bit exciting when the blower made enough suction to make the flat slide Italian Methanol carb stick @ WOT... :mrgreen:

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Re: Thinking out loud. Billet head with water jackets.

Post by Old as Dirt » Sat Dec 08, 2018 9:54 pm

Little Blower from Japan was originally on a 600cc mini car, drove it off the output shaft @ 15 P to 45 tooth ratio through a jackshaft.. built a "containment set of rods" in case the headbolts didn't hold.. and even utilized a vacuum fitting in the exhaust.
Spun it up to 8500 rpm a few times and after pulling the billet head off, and mailing it to Darin Morgan.. he told me the design of the head was junk in so many words.. put it back together and sold it.. was still a fun little project..




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Re: Thinking out loud. Billet head with water jackets.

Post by TMSJoe » Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:44 am

Old as Dirt wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 9:54 pm
mailing it to Darin Morgan.. he told me the design of the head was junk in so many words.. put it back together and sold it.. was still a fun little project..
What does Darin Morgan know about..... heads anyway? #-o

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