Header Theory by Vince Roman from Burns @ PRI

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NewbVetteGuy
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Re: Header Theory by Vince Roman from Burns @ PRI

Post by NewbVetteGuy » Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:46 pm

exhausted wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:16 pm
I applaud Vince for stepping out and speaking about his perspective and hope we can get transcripts and have some good discussions in the future.
Agreed. Too much "magic pixie dust" in this space.
Hope Vince / PRI will share the transcripts.
Also looking forward to some new "Exhausted" blog posts, so applause to you for "stepping out and speaking about your perspective", too, Sir.

I feel like so much of the benefits of the "Elston School" of exhaust design are more applicable to street cars / street/strip but the science, engineering knowledge has been kept mostly in the race world.



Adam

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Re: Header Theory by Vince Roman from Burns @ PRI

Post by Daniel Jones » Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:13 pm

Goran Malmberg is Swedish Pantera owner who builds guitars as well as exhaust systems. V8 180 and 90 degree headers are apparently more sensitive than bank separated 4-into-1 headers. Rather than trying for equal length, he adjusts the lengths so they play the same note. From his website (http://www.hemipanter.se/#Exhaust), he explains his method:

"Headers are 31 x 2.11 inches, giving the engine a peak at 5500 rpm. I have my own (guitar tuning) trick of tuning the exhaust primary pipes. By listening to the note of the pipe, it is possible to tune all primary (and secondary pipes respectively) to the same frequency even though this might result, due to bends and such, in some discrepancy in actual physical length. Think of it as an organ pipe. Sing a note in the pipe listening for the resonance to tune in. The frequency is a function of air volume and pipe length. Staggered pipes they may be, but we´ve got the resonance length spot on!. And frequencies is what the engine senses. A fraction of an inch is easily detected in the variance of note. End pipes are 3 inches x 25. To quiet the car I use a large silencer, pictured later in this site.

Another interesting side effect of "guitartuning" the exhaust is that it provides great music! Especially with the very short system of the Pantera which responds to almost any change in pipe design. And as no surprise, good note and performance are more often than not very, closely related."

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Re: Header Theory by Vince Roman from Burns @ PRI

Post by groberts101 » Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:23 pm

NewbVetteGuy wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:46 pm
exhausted wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:16 pm
I applaud Vince for stepping out and speaking about his perspective and hope we can get transcripts and have some good discussions in the future.
Agreed. Too much "magic pixie dust" in this space.
Hope Vince / PRI will share the transcripts.
Also looking forward to some new "Exhausted" blog posts, so applause to you for "stepping out and speaking about your perspective", too, Sir.

I feel like so much of the benefits of the "Elston School" of exhaust design are more applicable to street cars / street/strip but the science, engineering knowledge has been kept mostly in the race world.



Adam
I wonder if Calvin ever met or heard of Ed Henniman of "headers by ed" in Minneapolis?

He was an early generation genius when it came to designing and fitting exhausts based on what the engine wanted and preferred vs what actually fit or swallowed up the oem sized ports. Early pre-web proponent of smaller more efficient vs larger and inefficient. He chased power and et till he found it.. primary tube mismatches be damned.

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Re: Header Theory by Vince Roman from Burns @ PRI

Post by exhausted » Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:41 pm

groberts101 wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:23 pm

I wonder if Calvin ever met or heard of Ed Henniman of "headers by ed" in Minneapolis?
Of course, he posts here, no? Or maybe just on Yellow Bullet. Never talked or met in person. I have picked up on his posts he knows most stuff is too big. :)
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704-443-8088
Web: www.elstonheaders.com
Blog: www.exhausting101.com

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Re: Header Theory by Vince Roman from Burns @ PRI

Post by Newold1 » Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:32 am

I realize as many here do that there are a lot of other factors in the various elements of header design other than the relative importance of equal length primary tubes.

Since I believe over the years of Burn's evolution and success with developing and building headers under the input and sometimes direction and feedback from the team's in NASCAR, that when that input and feedback to Burns shows up in NASCAR with headers that have obvious different length primaries I will stay with equal length primaries.

Why, because what those team's can and will SPEND on headers is pretty much anything they want and from what I can see they buy expensive stainless headers from shops like Burns and almost all I've seen are equal length! End of my narrow minded analysis. :?
The Older I Get, The Dumber I Get :wink:

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Re: Header Theory by Vince Roman from Burns @ PRI

Post by hoffman900 » Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:47 am

Newold1 wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:32 am
I realize as many here do that there are a lot of other factors in the various elements of header design other than the relative importance of equal length primary tubes.

Since I believe over the years of Burn's evolution and success with developing and building headers under the input and sometimes direction and feedback from the team's in NASCAR, that when that input and feedback to Burns shows up in NASCAR with headers that have obvious different length primaries I will stay with equal length primaries.

Why, because what those team's can and will SPEND on headers is pretty much anything they want and from what I can see they buy expensive stainless headers from shops like Burns and almost all I've seen are equal length! End of my narrow minded analysis. :?
I think most NASCAR headers ar inconel.

Does anyone have any NASCAR takeoffs laying around?
-Bob

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Re: Header Theory by Vince Roman from Burns @ PRI

Post by MadBill » Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:48 am

The couple of Ford NASCAR sets we cut up for parts were stainless, but that doesn't mean there aren't inconel ones out there. I believe a lot of really high-end headers are made up from flat stock, since inconel tubing choices are limited.
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Re: Header Theory by Vince Roman from Burns @ PRI

Post by exhausted » Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:50 pm

ProFabrication or Goodfab or the teams themselves make the Cup headers these days. Don't know the percentage but probably over half the teams use inconel headers using 20 or 22gauge tubing which is available in many sizes from ProFab and Goodfab here in NC.
Please don't be confused about unequal length headers. The point is that many times there are constrictions on the headers not to mention the whole system. I always work to equal length but there are trade-offs. To me, if I am within 1-2inches I am happy. It is very easy to start chopping horsepower off by knotting up a header to get equal length. You abuse flow rules and you lose power, and a lot more than being unequal length. There is enough room in a Cup car to be easily within 2" and still be smooth. You learn over the years when building the same stuff where the line is. :)
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704-443-8088
Web: www.elstonheaders.com
Blog: www.exhausting101.com

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Re: Header Theory by Vince Roman from Burns @ PRI

Post by Momus » Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:36 pm

hoffman900 wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:47 am
Newold1 wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:32 am
I realize as many here do that there are a lot of other factors in the various elements of header design other than the relative importance of equal length primary tubes.

Since I believe over the years of Burn's evolution and success with developing and building headers under the input and sometimes direction and feedback from the team's in NASCAR, that when that input and feedback to Burns shows up in NASCAR with headers that have obvious different length primaries I will stay with equal length primaries.

Why, because what those team's can and will SPEND on headers is pretty much anything they want and from what I can see they buy expensive stainless headers from shops like Burns and almost all I've seen are equal length! End of my narrow minded analysis. :?
I think most NASCAR headers ar inconel.

Does anyone have any NASCAR takeoffs laying around?
Yes inconel. I have bought a couple of sets of ex Cup headers that were made from under .040" material.

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Re: Header Theory by Vince Roman from Burns @ PRI

Post by Momus » Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:39 pm

hoffman900 wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:47 am
Newold1 wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:32 am
I realize as many here do that there are a lot of other factors in the various elements of header design other than the relative importance of equal length primary tubes.

Since I believe over the years of Burn's evolution and success with developing and building headers under the input and sometimes direction and feedback from the team's in NASCAR, that when that input and feedback to Burns shows up in NASCAR with headers that have obvious different length primaries I will stay with equal length primaries.

Why, because what those team's can and will SPEND on headers is pretty much anything they want and from what I can see they buy expensive stainless headers from shops like Burns and almost all I've seen are equal length! End of my narrow minded analysis. :?
I think most NASCAR headers ar inconel.

Does anyone have any NASCAR takeoffs laying around?
Yes inconel. I have bought a couple of sets of Cup headers that were under .040" wt

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Re: Header Theory by Vince Roman from Burns @ PRI

Post by MadBill » Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:42 pm

Does it discolor similarly to SS, or??
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Re: Header Theory by Vince Roman from Burns @ PRI

Post by Momus » Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:39 pm

MadBill wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:42 pm
Does it discolor similarly to SS, or??
Yes, similar sort of brown.

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Re: Header Theory by Vince Roman from Burns @ PRI

Post by gmrocket » Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:54 pm

It's time for a header shootout competition!

Let's see who's right

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Re: Header Theory by Vince Roman from Burns @ PRI

Post by exhausted » Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:44 pm

Inconel is 600 series stainless steel. A lot stronger and expensive. Allows .018-.025 wall headers.
I did a few sets for the Mazda 4 rotor prototype car in the early 90's. 321 18gauge sets would sag and deform from their own weight! Past orange to white hot when at full song. Inconel could handle it without issues.
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704-443-8088
Web: www.elstonheaders.com
Blog: www.exhausting101.com

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Re: Header Theory by Vince Roman from Burns @ PRI

Post by exhausted » Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:45 pm

gmrocket wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:54 pm
It's time for a header shootout competition!

Let's see who's right
What are we shooting at?
Calvin Elston
Elston Exhaust Inc.
Matthews, NC 28104
704-443-8088
Web: www.elstonheaders.com
Blog: www.exhausting101.com

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