GM's new 4.2L DOHC twin turbo V-8 !!

[stokerboats]

103 years later, the Chevy V8 still improves.

[peejay]

And how about the tens of millions of drivers getting half the mileage they could in a car while toting nothing but air in their off road-capable HD 4WD pick 'em ups and tip-toeing over speed bumps at 2 MPH?

LOL

One of my favorite quotes:

"I don't drive a truck, because I don't need one. Just like most people who drive trucks."

[Olds455]

Man you guys love to TRY to show each other up, don't you? You all can barely have a conversation without somebody trying to prove how much smarter they are than everyone else. Don't you guys get tired of this? C'mon.

[Newold1]

If you're talking about my smarts, please reread my qoute- "The Older I Get, the Dumber I Get!"
I hav'nt learned yet one tenth of what I need to or should know!

[Ron E]

Mark and Brian. Thanks. Those were the kind of answers I was looking for. The change kind of makes sense in those terms. I'm anything but a chassis guy. Although I'm still curious how the ZR1 reset the lap record at VIR by a full second from the previous record held by a Ford GT. Ford had a professional driver, the 'vette had an obviously talented driver. But, he's a GM engineer.

Carnut, you suggest "cool" doesn't matter. But, you also say its what the current and future 'vette buyers want. That tells me the "cool factor" remains at the top of the list. As mentioned before, maybe 1 tenth of 1% of the buying public has a prayer of taking the ZR1 near its limits and surviving to tell the story.

[peejay]

Engineers can be talented drivers too, they just have different "day jobs".

[Bazman]

I have to ask, does anyone here think they can take this years highest performance front engine Vette and utlilize all it's performance on a public road other than in a straight line? I have to ask, can anyone here take the highest performance Camaro, Mustang or Challenger and use all the performance on the street other than in a straight line...?
Super performance cars are bragging rights for the manufacturer and the owners...

Well, if you'd like to come on down to lil ol New Zealand and put one into our Targa events, you can have both lanes closed off on public roads and go for broke - speed limits apply on the straights, but trust me, the Camaro, Mustang and Challenger will be out paced no matter what model. Horses for courses.... the ZR1 would be great to see, I'd love to ring its neck on our roads. Biggest problem would be getting adequate clearance, might have to raise it 50mm (2") to compete. On twisty roads that have the odd bump and changes in surface, a worked Evo is almost impossible to beat, though I prefer more challenging cars - like my twin turbo LS3 haha.... not as quick overall - but a lot more fun... so yeah, not everyone just likes to go 1/4 mile at a time

[Truckedup]

Uh, public roads closed off to traffic are race tracks... .. In this country are many remote areas where a car could be driven at or near it's limit for a short period of time.And there are track days on road courses..But I believe many owners do not have the ability or want to risk the chance of a wrecks.... Spend an hour on You Tube and you can see 100's of Corvettes spinning out and crashing on the street at relatively low speeds...When the traction and stability control is turned off, catching a high HP car when it' breaks traction is not so easy...
I don't believe that for one second that HP or performance limits should be controlled by the gov't,but there's a lot of drivers out there that are not as good as think they are..

[mk e]

Driver assistance like traction and stability control are probably the only reason high hp rear drive production cars exist. I remember back when front drive cars were charging into the market in the 80s...I read most manufacturers believed 15:1 weight/hp was about it for a stable car. Chrysler thought 13:1 is the number I recall and offered a couple "hot"small fed cars. Then came computers and even minivans moved into the once unstable space. I have a bad wheel sensor somewhere on my bmw driver do all the assist system including awd are off-line so rwd, .....it drives terrible......I'd forgotten about things like the inside wheel just spins and you barely move as you pull out while turning...yuck.

Midengine cars are mostly insensitive to hp....things happen faster with more power and you get more throttle induced understeer but a 600+hp midengine car drives just fine on the street or track with no computer helping. When I first started talking about engine work on my 308 the immediate responses were "you're going to throw off the chassis balance, it won't drive right, blah, blah, blah". Going from 240hp to 400 to about 650 the only thing that changed was the acceleration rate and what rpm I normally shifted at around town....and winning autocrosses got easier not harder. The new 900ish hp engine (if I ever get it working right) did make me think it was a good idea to add sensors traction control....but I don't think it will actually be necessary.....this is just a very stable layout.

[Truckedup]

So all the theory of mid engine cars having a tendency to spin out faster due to "polar inertia" is not rue? Obviously modern suspension can nullify this...

[mk e]

So all the theory of mid engine cars having a tendency to spin out faster due to "polar inertia" is not rue? Obviously modern suspension can nullify this...

Oh that's mostly true, they change directions very quickly.
But throttle on it a turn tends to make them understeer, at least the ones I've drive hard enough to find out so they feel stable.

The problem it that due to the inherent balance getting all 4 tires to full load at about the same time and the fact that the low polar interia means you can turn in faster, once it let's go there is basically no saving it......at least not in mortal hands. I saw in-car video of Kimi Raikkonin's f1 Ferrari getting out of shape and he was moving the steering wheel so fast his hand were just a blur. A few laps before a lower teir car got out of shape in the same spot....and ended up in the wall.

[MadBill]

Fast hands; one of the sport's critical attributes...

[peejay]

So all the theory of mid engine cars having a tendency to spin out faster due to "polar inertia" is not rue? Obviously modern suspension can nullify this...

Oh that's mostly true, they change directions very quickly.
But throttle on it a turn tends to make them understeer, at least the ones I've drive hard enough to find out so they feel stable.

The problem it that due to the inherent balance getting all 4 tires to full load at about the same time and the fact that the low polar interia means you can turn in faster, once it let's go there is basically no saving it......at least not in mortal hands. I saw in-car video of Kimi Raikkonin's f1 Ferrari getting out of shape and he was moving the steering wheel so fast his hand were just a blur. A few laps before a lower teir car got out of shape in the same spot....and ended up in the wall.

Throttle in ANY vehicle tends to make them understeer. The difference with mid-engine versus front-engine rear drive is that you can generally get more acceleration before "load transfer understeer" turns into "wheelspin oversteer".


Traditional mid-engine cars, especially the ones with a reputation for swapping ends on you, have had shortish wheelbases. In the 85-95 inch range. Modern design tends towards much longer wheelbases, 100-110" and even higher, so they are much less likely to snap on you.

[Bazman]

My buddy has a Lambo 560-4. It's a great car and has 000's of closed road and track kms on it (about 25k of events on it). It is catchable on road tires - but you need very quick hands.... I'd liken it to driving a rear wheel drive car on slicks that are a bit old and hard.... it grips, then it lets go, but will normally offer an early warning wiggle before it get's to that if you are pushing. The problem is when you get on it too hard out of a turn, or enter too fast and brake too late - either of those and you'll be busy.

The best invention to make high power cars safe has been the smart diffs like Wavetrac, Trutrac, Quaife etc that allow both wheels to be driven in a straight line, but put power to the OUTSIDE wheel out of turns. This one thing alone is the difference between being able to drive 6-700rwhp hard in the wet or dry vs going sideways in the dry passing a car on the old spool or older style LSD's.... The smarter diffs allow you to steer through it, the older diffs you had to steer on the throttle - very dangerous on public roads.

I feel safer driving 1000hp with a Wavetrac or similar than 500hp in an old Mopar A body and a spool/lock up.

As for traction control - takes it another level. AMG has the best I've experienced - push the button to turn it half off - keep alert and enjoy - wet or dry is all good.

[peejay]

Uh, public roads closed off to traffic are race tracks...

I call then rally stages, as do most of the rest of the world Sadly, stage rally is not quite as popular in the US as in other countries. If half the people at any given test and tune night at the local dragstrip, or half the people at any given circle track, were interested in stage rally instead, national participation would practically double.

It doesn't hurt that the majority of enthusiast vehicles in the US are quite unsuitable for it. People have rallied Mustangs, mostly to prove they could do it.