Oil viscosity, bearing clearance, oil pressure question big block chevy

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GRTfast
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Re: Oil viscosity, bearing clearance, oil pressure question big block chevy

Post by GRTfast »

David Redszus wrote: Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:38 pm Determining the correct oil viscosity for a given engine and operating condition is no simple matter.
Trial and error is often employed and often results in trial and error, error, error, error, etc.

Oil viscosity is a function of the oil itself and operating temperature; the units of actual viscosity are CentiStokes (cSt), which can be predicted at any temperature using cSt values at 40 and 100C.

A very useful equation used to predict required oil viscosity is given by the Sommerfeld Number. There are a number of
variables to be considered:

Journal diameter (in)
Bearing clearance (in)
Bearing length (in)
Bearing load (lbs)
Bearing speed (rpm)
Oil Temp (F)
Oil cSt @ 40C
Oil cSt @ 100C
Oil Specific Gravity
Oil pressure (psi)

Using the above inputs, a spreadsheet can be built that will give:
Absolute oil viscosity (cSt)
Dynamic viscosity (cP)
Bearing area (in2)
Bearing unit pressure (lbs/in2)
Bearing flow area (in2)

Now we can determine the Sommerfeld number inflection point; an oil viscosity that will yield the minimum friction under any set of operating conditions.

Oil that is too thin or too thick will both produce excessive bearing wear due to increased friction.
Oil that is too thin has the additional benefit of producing engine destruction.

Oil that approaches a too thin condition must rely on the oil anti-wear additive package to survive.

OE mfgs work closely with oil companies to design and specify the correct oil for intended operating conditions.
Then we over-rule them and race the engine beyond its intended limits. :)
Found all these formulas you' re referencing in my Shigley's book. I played around with the Sommerfled number, and bearing characteristic number for a few different oil viscosities (input as temperature dependent vectors) for my engine. Pretty interesting stuff. Looks like a 0w40 or 5w40 appears to be the best all around from startup temp to operational temps. 0w30 or 10w30 falls below the minimum bearing characteristic number (1.7*10^-6) for thick film stable lubrication around 5500 rpm at high oil temps (over 100 C). 10w40 or 15w40 has a sommerfeld number way above the recommended high end of the range (~15) at startup temps if I tried to run the engine hard immediately (obviously not a good idea for a number of reasons). If I let it warm up, the higher winter number viscosity oils are fine.

Of course this is all making some assumptions to make the calcs simple. I can see how the rabbit hole can get really deep when one starts to consider all the relevant input variables. Cool sh*t.
Take the risk of thinking for yourself, much more happiness, truth, beauty, and wisdom will come to you that way. -Hitchens
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Re: Oil viscosity, bearing clearance, oil pressure question big block chevy

Post by Dan Timberlake »

"Oil that is too thin or too thick will both produce excessive bearing wear due to increased friction."

(Over)-simplifying I'd figure too thick oil might suffer from higher viscous drag, but I'm unclear how the bearings would suffer from that.

thanks,

Dan T
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Re: Oil viscosity, bearing clearance, oil pressure question big block chevy

Post by GRTfast »

Dan Timberlake wrote: Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:50 pm "Oil that is too thin or too thick will both produce excessive bearing wear due to increased friction."

(Over)-simplifying I'd figure too thick oil might suffer from higher viscous drag, but I'm unclear how the bearings would suffer from that.

thanks,

Dan T
The thicker oil is more likely to cavitate in the bearing. Where there is cavity, there is no oil. Where there is no oil, there is high friction.

That is what I understand anyway. David can clarify/correct me.
Take the risk of thinking for yourself, much more happiness, truth, beauty, and wisdom will come to you that way. -Hitchens
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Re: Oil viscosity, bearing clearance, oil pressure question big block chevy

Post by cjperformance »

I have, in the past, used some pretty thick oil namely Penrite HPR30(20/60 still use it sometimes) and Penrite HPR50(40/70treacle). Even in drag stuff, dry block, run from as cold as possible. Bearings, cams, lifters, pistons always looked like new, literally no wear on bearings.
Lighter oil makes/frees up more powere, but parts dont look any better.
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Re: Oil viscosity, bearing clearance, oil pressure question big block chevy

Post by naukkis79 »

Dan Timberlake wrote: Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:50 pm "Oil that is too thin or too thick will both produce excessive bearing wear due to increased friction."

(Over)-simplifying I'd figure too thick oil might suffer from higher viscous drag, but I'm unclear how the bearings would suffer from that.
At high rpm there's not sufficient oil supply with too high viscosity oil. Rev up cold engine with thick oil and rod bearings starve for oil, overheat and burn.

Same happens at high revs when oil is just little bit too thick. Rod bearings makes a lot of heat at high revs and oil supply has to be enough to keep them cool, if not oil overheats and becomes too thin to be able to lubricate bearing. With thick oils there has to be extreme oil pressure at high revs to have sufficient oil flow into rod bearings, with thinner oils way lower pressures are fine.

Thick oils are needed for extreme cam lubrication, bearings are much better served with thin oils.
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Re: Oil viscosity, bearing clearance, oil pressure question big block chevy

Post by David Redszus »

Would it surprise anyone that main bearings, rod bearings, rings, cam lobes all need a different oil viscosity?

Each has different surface speeds, loading, temperature, and bearing area. How does one oil fit all requirements?


Lifting your feet out of a water puddle is much easier than lifting your foot out of thick mud.

Friction wear is due to excessive viscosity. Abrasive wear is due to inadequate viscosity.


"if a little is good, more is better, and too much is just enough."
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Re: Oil viscosity, bearing clearance, oil pressure question big block chevy

Post by cjperformance »

David Redszus wrote: Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:36 am Would it surprise anyone that main bearings, rod bearings, rings, cam lobes all need a different oil viscosity?

Each has different surface speeds, loading, temperature, and bearing area. How does one oil fit all requirements?


Lifting your feet out of a water puddle is much easier than lifting your foot out of thick mud.

Friction wear is due to excessive viscosity. Abrasive wear is due to inadequate viscosity.


"if a little is good, more is better, and too much is just enough."
No surprise at there David. Theres probably at least 50 ideal viscosities in an engine for a given oil temp, we just need to juggle around and find an oil that does not kill any one component and thats a good starting point.
Craig.
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Re: Oil viscosity, bearing clearance, oil pressure question big block chevy

Post by GARY C »

Just run 6 different weights in a 6 quart pan so that you have them all covered. :)
Please Note!
THE ABOVE POST IN NO WAY REFLECTS THE VIEWS OF SPEED TALK OR IT'S MEMBERS AND SHOULD BE VIEWED AS ENTERTAINMENT ONLY...Thanks, The Management!
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Re: Oil viscosity, bearing clearance, oil pressure question big block chevy

Post by cjperformance »

GARY C wrote: Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:16 am Just run 6 different weights in a 6 quart pan so that you have them all covered. :)
Great idea, im sure would sell well on flea bay! Multi vis all season oil pan :lol:
Craig.
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Re: Oil viscosity, bearing clearance, oil pressure question big block chevy

Post by GARY C »

cjperformance wrote: Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:32 am
GARY C wrote: Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:16 am Just run 6 different weights in a 6 quart pan so that you have them all covered. :)
Great idea, im sure would sell well on flea bay! Multi vis all season oil pan :lol:
Pre Ran Pump included at no extra cost.
Please Note!
THE ABOVE POST IN NO WAY REFLECTS THE VIEWS OF SPEED TALK OR IT'S MEMBERS AND SHOULD BE VIEWED AS ENTERTAINMENT ONLY...Thanks, The Management!
cjperformance
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Re: Oil viscosity, bearing clearance, oil pressure question big block chevy

Post by cjperformance »

:lol: dw
GARY C wrote: Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:39 am
cjperformance wrote: Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:32 am
GARY C wrote: Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:16 am Just run 6 different weights in a 6 quart pan so that you have them all covered. :)
Great idea, im sure would sell well on flea bay! Multi vis all season oil pan :lol:
Pre Ran Pump included at no extra cost.
"Hot run tested" :lol:
Craig.
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