AFR 210cc SBC Eliminator ported numbers update

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steve cowan
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Re: AFR 210cc SBC Eliminator ported numbers update

Post by steve cowan »

WeingartnerRacing wrote: Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:14 am
steve cowan wrote: Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:59 am Eric,
Thanks for sharing your results, in my opinion it shows again that no matter what logo these medium sized 23 degree heads all seem to have turbulence around that 600" lift range. With that csa at the pinch they would work well on a 421-434 sbc at 6000-6500 rpm.
ERIC,
Are your exhaust throat % above 90%??
I understand if you don't want to share that one, just curious as I am trying to figure out apart from the reversion side of the equation, would it help velocity through the exhaust port so you don't have to oversize the flange area bigger than required and or does it help with overscavanging problems at higher rpm,just thinking out loud hear,
Anyway anything else you can share is a bonus, thanks
Actually most of my other heads like my dragon slayers don’t back up at .600. This heads vane really messed with things.
Eric,
Just to clarify, I should of wrote that most small block heads out of the box seen to be have airspeed problems around 600" lift,
I know you're stuff runs good, I was not having a pop at you in anyway.
C H A D gave a good explanation on the exhaust deal so thanks for that.
I have read it and said it before that a exhaust port can not be designed on a flow bench alone, I am going to throw it out there and say velocity is king,
Anyone like to add, would be appreciated
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Re: AFR 210cc SBC Eliminator ported numbers update

Post by steve cowan »

Hopefully Randy will post here about the air vane he made for the EMC deal, I think he made them and pinned and epoxy into the bowl area.
I am interested in people's thoughts on the vane, does it help air going around the valve stem or help direct air and fuel into the chamber and cylinder better??
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Re: AFR 210cc SBC Eliminator ported numbers update

Post by MELWAY »

Was there much material and height removed from short turn to gain the flow at higher lifts

I think the AFR short turns are low and abrupt compared to other heads leaving not much to work with
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Re: AFR 210cc SBC Eliminator ported numbers update

Post by David Vizard »

Steve, your comment :-
I have read it and said it before that a exhaust port can not be designed on a flow bench alone, I am going to throw it out there and say velocity is king,
Anyone like to add, would be appreciated


The first 150-200 thou lift on my exhaust ports are cut to favor supersonic flow (not measurable on a conventional flow bench) After that is all about what the port can flow on the bench from 200 thou lift on up.

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Re: AFR 210cc SBC Eliminator ported numbers update

Post by David Vizard »

Eric,

What are the real port volumes here?
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Re: AFR 210cc SBC Eliminator ported numbers update

Post by WeingartnerRacing »

MELWAY wrote: Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:23 pm Was there much material and height removed from short turn to gain the flow at higher lifts

I think the AFR short turns are low and abrupt compared to other heads leaving not much to work with
Yes I did. The 210cc heads have a tall stood up shortside. They seem short because the Afr don’t have the ramp up and over the shortside like other heads.
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Re: AFR 210cc SBC Eliminator ported numbers update

Post by WeingartnerRacing »

David Vizard wrote: Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:11 pm Eric,

What are the real port volumes here?
DV
I don’t know I haven’t cc them just height and widths through the port.
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Re: AFR 210cc SBC Eliminator ported numbers update

Post by David Vizard »

WeingartnerRacing wrote: Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:22 pm
David Vizard wrote: Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:11 pm Eric,

What are the real port volumes here?
DV
I don’t know I haven’t cc them just height and widths through the port.
Eric,
Any chance of getting some cc numbers here???
Thanks
DV
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Re: AFR 210cc SBC Eliminator ported numbers update

Post by steve cowan »

David Vizard wrote: Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:09 pm Steve, your comment :-
I have read it and said it before that a exhaust port can not be designed on a flow bench alone, I am going to throw it out there and say velocity is king,
Anyone like to add, would be appreciated


The first 150-200 thou lift on my exhaust ports are cut to favor supersonic flow (not measurable on a conventional flow bench) After that is all about what the port can flow on the bench from 200 thou lift on up.

DV
Interesting,
Are the velocities at supersonic speed
1125 ft/sec @ 68 deg Fahrenheit @ sea level measured on a bench that can pull 100in depression or is it measured on a running engine with a pressure transducer in the combustion chamber at approx 1350 degrees Fahrenheit meaning the velocity will change with temp and barometric pressure??
Where does the velocity profile go after 200" lift,??
Do you keep exhaust flow percentage in relation to intake as the lift increases?
I would think that EVO and piston position has everything to do with blowdown velocity as the exhaust valve cracks off the seat, also seat angles and widths influenceing low lift flow
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Re: AFR 210cc SBC Eliminator ported numbers update

Post by randy331 »

steve cowan wrote: Mon Nov 19, 2018 3:55 pm I have read it and said it before that a exhaust port can not be designed on a flow bench alone,
Sure it can, if flowZ is all your after,... but once you see a bigger pipe flow more on a bench, but make less power and/or run slower in the car, and steeper seats flow less at low lifts but run better, or made changes to ex ports that made no difference on the flow bench but made more power and ran better, you have to accept (or at least should accept) the limits of a flow bench for developing ex ports.

If more flowz was all that counted, bigger would always be better.

Ex. ports need to have a certain ex gas speed. The bench can't tell you that.
But,... within the confines of lots of other factors, more cfm on a bench is likely a plus, but not because it matches the intake cfm better, or some other theory based on flowZ.

Read Eric's post after Mag posted he didn't like the low lift ex flow loss.

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Re: AFR 210cc SBC Eliminator ported numbers update

Post by David Vizard »

randy331 wrote: Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:06 pm
steve cowan wrote: Mon Nov 19, 2018 3:55 pm I have read it and said it before that a exhaust port can not be designed on a flow bench alone,
Sure it can, if flowZ is all your after,... but once you see a bigger pipe flow more on a bench, but make less power and/or run slower in the car, and steeper seats flow less at low lifts but run better, or made changes to ex ports that made no difference on the flow bench but made more power and ran better, you have to accept (or at least should accept) the limits of a flow bench for developing ex ports. Just how limiting the flow bench data is depends on how deep your investigation of the parameters involved are.

If more flowz was all that counted, bigger would always be better. Finally we are on the same page -good to see you Randy without me having to move from the spot.

Ex. ports need to have a certain ex gas speed. The bench can't tell you that. whoops - we are on different pages again! A conventional (as apposed to a S/S one) flow bench can tell you exactly what is needed once the supersonic lift range has been exceeded.
But,... within the confines of lots of other factors, more cfm on a bench is likely a plus, (IOP will tell you instantly whether it's a plus or not) but not because it matches the intake cfm better, or some other theory based on flowZ.

Read Eric's post after Mag posted he didn't like the low lift ex flow loss.

Randy
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Re: AFR 210cc SBC Eliminator ported numbers update

Post by n2xlr8n »

Not that I'm a head porting guru, but I keep having this bell ringing in my head (could be age-related), telling me that-

nitro2 stated exhaust flow does not exceed supersonic.

Am I mis-remembering?
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Re: AFR 210cc SBC Eliminator ported numbers update

Post by steve316 »

DV said it does exceed supersonic; maybe he has so data that shows this? If he does maybe he will share.
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Re: AFR 210cc SBC Eliminator ported numbers update

Post by David Vizard »

n2xlr8n wrote: Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:04 am Not that I'm a head porting guru, but I keep having this bell ringing in my head (could be age-related), telling me that-

nitro2 stated exhaust flow does not exceed supersonic.

Am I mis-remembering?
It does not exceed S/S in the port but it does between the valve seats at low lift.
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Re: AFR 210cc SBC Eliminator ported numbers update

Post by CamKing »

n2xlr8n wrote: Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:04 am
nitro2 stated exhaust flow does not exceed supersonic.
It does in NHRA Pro Stock.
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