Real Budget Vortec Engine build

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slo-svt
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Re: Real Budget Vortec Engine build

Post by slo-svt » Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:23 pm

This will be my last response regarding the dyno excel sheet. If anyone has questions message me directly as this matter has kind of clogged up this thread. I have verified that the sheet works with excel online which is free. You simply need to download the file to your computer. Create a Microsoft one drive account and upload it into your one drive files tab. Then you can double click the file and it will open with excel online. I am attaching another copy of the file because * brought to my attention that I accidently deleted EGT (They weren't labeled EGT in original data so I have no way of knowing which bank was which). I also modified so it doesn't show the external link error message at the top and added a blank run selection so you don't always have to put 4 runs up (this makes it nice if your using the line graph on page 3). If you have concerns, comments, suggestions just message me directly.

Josh

Here is a link to onedrive
https://onedrive.live.com/about/en-us/
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
"I believe in the scientific method and one should have a healthy skepticism of things in general. From a scientific standpoint, you always look at thing probabilistically and not definitively."

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Re: Real Budget Vortec Engine build

Post by GARY C » Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:49 am

slo-svt wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:23 pm
This will be my last response regarding the dyno excel sheet. If anyone has questions message me directly as this matter has kind of clogged up this thread. I have verified that the sheet works with excel online which is free. You simply need to download the file to your computer. Create a Microsoft one drive account and upload it into your one drive files tab. Then you can double click the file and it will open with excel online. I am attaching another copy of the file because * brought to my attention that I accidently deleted EGT (They weren't labeled EGT in original data so I have no way of knowing which bank was which). I also modified so it doesn't show the external link error message at the top and added a blank run selection so you don't always have to put 4 runs up (this makes it nice if your using the line graph on page 3). If you have concerns, comments, suggestions just message me directly.

Josh

Here is a link to onedrive
https://onedrive.live.com/about/en-us/
CGT posted actual screen shots of what is needed so I doubt many will be chasing an online version of something they don't need. Posting simple dyno sheets like what is required from every other engine builder would solve this ongoing issue...
Please Note!
THE ABOVE POST IN NO WAY REFLECTS THE VIEWS OF SPEED TALK OR IT'S MEMBER AND SHOULD BE VIEWED AS ENTERTAINMENT ONLY...Thanks, The Management!

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Re: Real Budget Vortec Engine build

Post by steve cowan » Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:14 am

C H A D,
i hope this thread will go for a little longer,good education for guys on a budget type builds.
i hope i have this correct with the lobes you used
comp (3410) 294 @ 0.006'',238 @ 0.050'',154 @ 0.200''. 525'' lift -1.5 RR
101 ICL -inop - 18*, incl- 40* @ 0.050'' tappet
comp (3357) 304 @ 0.006'',248 @ 0.050'',159 @ 0.200'' 500'' lift - 1.5RR
107 ECL exop - 51*, excl - 17* @ 0.050'' tappet.
looking through my own notes i feel i see a trend with intake closing and exhaust opening,valve timing events that you guys use,i understand one size does not fit all.
when you sized the heads on this build did you set you CSA by what you know or did you get them on a bench?? with the pinch set @ 1.9'' you will peak around 6500rpm,and is the avg CSA around 2.1''.
last question C H A D if you dont mind,i looked at the comp lobes 13064-13068
255- 271 @ 0.050'' 640'' lift
how do you think this cam would perform with the compression and cylinder heads as is,
looking at the intake manifold picture you posted i assume you done some work on the plenum and port match etc,how was fitment and port alignment??
i looked at buying a PP intake for standard 23deg but they were the same price nearly as a Holley Strip dominator delivered to Australia so i went the 300-25,
thanks for any feedback :D
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Re: Real Budget Vortec Engine build

Post by CGT » Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:18 am

This is the cam in the engine:
Core# 08-000-8 CHEVROLET 262-400 V8 W/ Roller Cam (1987-98)


Intake lobe# (3410) 294 238 154 .350 .088 .075 .525 .560 .595

Exhaust lobe# (3357) 304 248 159 .333 .106 .092 .500 .533 .566

Lobe Separation Angle 104°
Intake Centerline 101°

Intake Duration @ .050 238°
Exhaust Duration@ .050 248°

LSA: 104°
Intake Centerline: 101°
IVO is 18.0 ° BTDC
IVC is 40.0 ° ABDC
EVO is 51.0 ° BBDC
EVC is 17.0 ° ATDC
steve cowan wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:14 am
when you sized the heads on this build did you set you CSA by what you know or did you get them on a bench?? with the pinch set @ 1.9'' you will peak around 6500rpm,and is the avg CSA around 2.1''.
Disclaimer: I am not a cylinder head guy. The changes made to the heads were things that were suggested by someone that is ,I'm sure you can guess who that was, and a couple things I kind of winged...kind of the slept at a Holiday Inn thing. So there is no doubt they could be better. They never saw a flow bench. 2.1 avg is probably pretty close.
steve cowan wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:14 am
looking at the intake manifold picture you posted i assume you done some work on the plenum and port match etc,how was fitment and port alignment??
I spent a complete afternoon on the manifold(but I'm slow). And that mostly involved squaring up the plenum, it was way off, and shaping the runner dividers, they needed a bit of weld from missing pieces of casting. Also just blending plenum into runners etc. No changes in csa to the runners. By the time it was all done the port match ended up very good. But it had to go on and off the engine a couple times to get there.

For myself personally, I can't see ever buying one of these manifolds.....crude and rough but can be made to work I guess.
steve cowan wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:14 am
last question C H A D if you dont mind,i looked at the comp lobes 13064-13068
255- 271 @ 0.050'' 640'' lift
steve cowan wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:14 am
how do you think this cam would perform with the compression and cylinder heads as is,
Intake Duration: 255
Exhaust Duration: 271
LSA: 108
Intake Centerline: 104
IVO is 23.5 ° BTDC
IVC is 51.5 ° ABDC
EVO is 67.5 ° BBDC
EVC is 23.5 ° ATDC

Only one way to find out. If they were for trying a cam on the dyno, I wanted to do something drastic for the sake of learning. These valve sizes, with these seat angles(and widths) are very window area limited, which definitely has some advantages, like plugging up overlap period some, better DC etc. But seem to run better than they (should).

I would like to see how well the little valve steep seat (protected) the bottom of the torque curve with a cam like this, as well as if it could bump peak hp up a decent amount and how that horsepower would be saturated at and around the horsepower peak with giving the small window area some (time). It may run like shit with it, who knows, I personally think it could be surprising, but if not I could always find something to use it in . 8)
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, He will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man"

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Re: Real Budget Vortec Engine build

Post by steve cowan » Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:17 pm

C H A D,
some great information there thank you.
knowing what you know now and pretty well using steeper seats on all your builds if you had to do a 45* seat for some reason would your cam choices in cam timing events still be similar??
we have talked about blow down period and exhaust timing before,would duration on exhaust have to be decreased because of potential reversion ??
i am thinking ''yes'' because of valve curtain area size difference,velocity and pressure differences in the throat area at lower lifts (no reverse flow so to speak).
do yo find any problems with margin area on the valves because of the steeper seat angles used,i know you use MANLEY valves a bit,
just trying to entice some conversation,here we have a basic budget build with heavy piston and ring pack making close to a genuine 500hp with pictures,dyno sheets etc and all i read is a couple of yeah nice build etc.
it will get to to the point that the people who post up great builds and information wont bother in the future,sorry for the rant but its 4 am and i am late for work so as CGT says'' IM OUT ''but only for a little while :lol:
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Re: Real Budget Vortec Engine build

Post by CGT » Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:13 pm

steve cowan wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:17 pm
knowing what you know now and pretty well using steeper seats on all your builds if you had to do a 45* seat for some reason would your cam choices in cam timing events still be similar??
we have talked about blow down period and exhaust timing before,would duration on exhaust have to be decreased because of potential reversion ??
Well, that would be making an assumption that I've had anything " completely" optimized. But in my opinion, a 45 degree seat or any high low lift flow deal would require a more compromised set of valve events. OPINION!
steve cowan wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:17 pm
do yo find any problems with margin area on the valves because of the steeper seat angles used
The margins on the intake valves on project dale got pretty sharp after facing them at 52°.(stock valves). But we made do with what we had the best we could.

And Steve as you may have already guessed, I am currently "OUT"
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, He will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man"

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Re: Real Budget Vortec Engine build

Post by cpmotors » Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:06 pm

Nice Job, cool to see what a little more cam and intake does vs a very similar deal I built in 2010, Stuska and the stock valve size even. He should be pretty happy with that.
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Re: Real Budget Vortec Engine build

Post by CGT » Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:23 pm

cpmotors wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:06 pm
Nice Job, cool to see what a little more cam and intake does vs a very similar deal I built in 2010, Stuska and the stock valve size even. He should be pretty happy with that.
Thanks. Thanks again for contributing earlier in this thread.
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Re: Real Budget Vortec Engine build

Post by randy331 » Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:45 pm

CGT wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:51 am
What's your thoughts?
I think it runs good.

It's likely running out of area in the port.

May benefit from a little less average area in the manifold.
Likely port is a little small vs the area in the intake.
When the port is the limit, it doesn't seem like a bigger intake will help the top end, it just hurts the tq and tq below peak tq because the overall average indution tract CSA went up.
So,. for more average power in it's current rpm range I'd try a little less area in the intake and for more rpm I'd try more area in the port.
Of course an improved shape will help too.
I should a sent you some try Ys to try on it. That'd be interesting. They have 2.5" collectors. Just the collector size could help average power.

We always want more,...LOl Had a guy have me do some heads for his engine,... he wanted 550 HP. it made 590 and he asked about improvements again. LOL

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Re: Real Budget Vortec Engine build

Post by CGT » Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:53 am

randy331 wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:45 pm
We always want more,...LOl Had a guy have me do some heads for his engine,... he wanted 550 HP. it made 590 and he asked about improvements again. LOL
That guy sounds like a dick.
randy331 wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:45 pm
Likely port is a little small vs the area in the intake
I wanted a Edelbrock 2913 for this. But it was deemed too expensive. Would have seemed like a deal if I charged for fuxing with the Pro Products :shock:
randy331 wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:45 pm
So,. for more average power in it's current rpm range I'd try a little less area in the intake and for more rpm I'd try more area in the port.
Where in the port? Maybe just a revisit with a different set of spring calipers? :lol:
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Re: Real Budget Vortec Engine build

Post by CGT » Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:48 am

Screenshot (4).png

Screenshot (5).png
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Re: Real Budget Vortec Engine build

Post by steve cowan » Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:27 pm

Hey C H A D,
Your giving away to much free information :shock:
But I appreciate the spreadsheets :D
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Re: Real Budget Vortec Engine build

Post by CGT » Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:20 pm

steve cowan wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:27 pm
Hey C H A D,
Your giving away to much free information :shock:
But I appreciate the spreadsheets :D
I think their cool to look at.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, He will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man"

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Re: Real Budget Vortec Engine build

Post by paulzig » Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:42 pm

CGT wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:18 am
If they were for trying a cam on the dyno, I wanted to do something drastic for the sake of learning.
Why not go the other way?

Like a solid roller, remove the hydraulic element, and go to a much smaller SR lobe as this only peaked at 6000RPM..

Looking through the comp book:

IN: 4871 the XE 224@50 lobe
EX: 1476 the HE 244@50 lobe ... 109 LSA something like that

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Re: Real Budget Vortec Engine build

Post by rebelyell » Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:43 pm

Not trying to be funny ... I ask because I don't know and I'm following this build's details as closely as I can

What are meanings of following terms / abbreviations?

SN ?

Randy Valve Job ?

Randy Porting ?

Snotty ?

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