Winner Of The Race Engine Challenge

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Walter R. Malik
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Re: Winner Of The Race Engine Challenge

Post by Walter R. Malik » Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:23 am

NO ...

After all the true calculations, One deck was .010" shorter than the other so, one side was 11.94/1 and the other was 12.13 /1.

That probably would have meant maybe only a couple points in score but, it was over and not within the 11.99/1 rule limit.

MY fault for not checking both sides beforehand.

Analogy ... no such thing as a little bit pregnant.
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Re: Winner Of The Race Engine Challenge

Post by Walter R. Malik » Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:51 am

gmrocket wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:25 pm


So after all this were you legal or not?

Did they not calculate correctly and you did win?
Double post ... see above.
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Re: Winner Of The Race Engine Challenge

Post by CamKing » Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:03 am

Walter R. Malik wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:23 am
and the other was 12.13 /1.
For the record 12.13:1 compression is 1.018"% over the 12:1 limit. That would be about a 5hp advantage, and about a 1% advantage on total score.
Randy was almost 5% ahead of the next engine.
This is a great example, of why you always need to check everything on your engine. Measure, measure again, and when you're sure you're correct, measure one more time.

I learned from some of the greatest engine builders of their day. There was no magic to what they did. I figured out pretty quickly, that their "Speed secret" was being meticulous. They measured everything. If there wasn't a tool to measure something correctly, they made the tool to measure it.
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Re: Winner Of The Race Engine Challenge

Post by PRH » Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:11 am

CamKing wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:03 am
Walter R. Malik wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:23 am
and the other was 12.13 /1.
For the record 12.13:1 compression is 1.018"% over the 12:1 limit. That would be about a 5hp advantage, and about a 1% advantage on total score.
Randy was almost 5% ahead of the next engine.
This is a great example, of why you always need to check everything on your engine. Measure, measure again, and when you're sure you're correct, measure one more time.
Is that 5hp based on 4 or 8 cylinders being 1.018% over the limit?
Somewhat handy with a die grinder.

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Re: Winner Of The Race Engine Challenge

Post by CamKing » Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:17 am

PRH wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:11 am
CamKing wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:03 am
Walter R. Malik wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:23 am
and the other was 12.13 /1.
For the record 12.13:1 compression is 1.018"% over the 12:1 limit. That would be about a 5hp advantage, and about a 1% advantage on total score.
Randy was almost 5% ahead of the next engine.
This is a great example, of why you always need to check everything on your engine. Measure, measure again, and when you're sure you're correct, measure one more time.
Is that 5hp based on 4 or 8 cylinders being 1.018% over the limit?
No. I based it off of all 8 cylinders being 12.13:1. If 4 cylinders were less then 12:1, then the power gain would be much less.
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Re: Winner Of The Race Engine Challenge

Post by Warp Speed » Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:27 am

CamKing wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:03 am
Walter R. Malik wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:23 am
and the other was 12.13 /1.
For the record 12.13:1 compression is 1.018"% over the 12:1 limit. That would be about a 5hp advantage, and about a 1% advantage on total score.
Randy was almost 5% ahead of the next engine.
This is a great example, of why you always need to check everything on your engine. Measure, measure again, and when you're sure you're correct, measure one more time.

I learned from some of the greatest engine builders of their day. There was no magic to what they did. I figured out pretty quickly, that their "Speed secret" was being meticulous. They measured everything. If there wasn't a tool to measure something correctly, they made the tool to measure it.
For the record........it was as illegal as 14.1! Lol

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Re: Winner Of The Race Engine Challenge

Post by gmrocket » Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:05 am

Scores can be extremely close in these deals.

As an example, in the inline class, before all this, second and third were only separated by a single point. Then this, now first and second only separated by one point.

If certain rules were allowed to be over by 1%, that would have changed the finishing order if the third was over by a percent or so, and second wasn't.


It doesn't take any more effort to be at the limit than it does to be over.

Like the cubic inch calculation..it's not rounded off like normal , if your over by .1 , you go up to the next full number. So your best at .99

Hard limits work best.
Last edited by gmrocket on Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Winner Of The Race Engine Challenge

Post by Stan Weiss » Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:10 am

Warp Speed wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:27 am
CamKing wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:03 am
Walter R. Malik wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:23 am
and the other was 12.13 /1.
For the record 12.13:1 compression is 1.018"% over the 12:1 limit. That would be about a 5hp advantage, and about a 1% advantage on total score.
Randy was almost 5% ahead of the next engine.
This is a great example, of why you always need to check everything on your engine. Measure, measure again, and when you're sure you're correct, measure one more time.

I learned from some of the greatest engine builders of their day. There was no magic to what they did. I figured out pretty quickly, that their "Speed secret" was being meticulous. They measured everything. If there wasn't a tool to measure something correctly, they made the tool to measure it.
For the record........it was as illegal as 14.1! Lol
Jay,
I look at this totally different. 14.1:1 for me means either the person was cheating or incompetent. 12.13:1 to me looks like just an honest mistake. Both illegal but to me a big difference.

Stan
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Do you use engine simulation software that uses cylinder head flow files?
We have a package of more than 3000 DFW or FLW Files

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Re: Winner Of The Race Engine Challenge

Post by gmrocket » Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:12 am

Stan Weiss wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:10 am
Warp Speed wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:27 am
CamKing wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:03 am

For the record 12.13:1 compression is 1.018"% over the 12:1 limit. That would be about a 5hp advantage, and about a 1% advantage on total score.
Randy was almost 5% ahead of the next engine.
This is a great example, of why you always need to check everything on your engine. Measure, measure again, and when you're sure you're correct, measure one more time.

I learned from some of the greatest engine builders of their day. There was no magic to what they did. I figured out pretty quickly, that their "Speed secret" was being meticulous. They measured everything. If there wasn't a tool to measure something correctly, they made the tool to measure it.
For the record........it was as illegal as 14.1! Lol
Jay,
I look at this totally different. 14.1:1 for me means either the person was cheating or incompetent. 12.13:1 to me looks like just an honest mistake. Both illegal but to me a big difference.

Stan
I just posted why that can have real consequences when scores are so close

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Re: Winner Of The Race Engine Challenge

Post by MadBill » Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:21 am

I don't know how it's spelled out in the rules, but also, tolerances need to be called out on the calculated numbers. E.g., as I understand mathematical convention, if the rule reads "12:1 CR maximum" then 12.49:1 rounds to 12 and should be legal, but if it reads "12.00:1 maximum" then 12.005 rounds to 12.01 and would not be.

Years ago a friend of mine set the local track record for 1600 cc Formula Fords (60+ car fields) but then flunked Tech due to the lift on one valve being 0.005" over the legal max. This was later traced to one of the individually legally blueprinted rocker arms having been installed in the wrong location, leaving another valve lift equally shy of the limit. #-o
Last edited by MadBill on Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Winner Of The Race Engine Challenge

Post by Stan Weiss » Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:32 am

gmrocket wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:12 am
Stan Weiss wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:10 am
Warp Speed wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:27 am


For the record........it was as illegal as 14.1! Lol
Jay,
I look at this totally different. 14.1:1 for me means either the person was cheating or incompetent. 12.13:1 to me looks like just an honest mistake. Both illegal but to me a big difference.

Stan
I just posted why that can have real consequences when scores are so close
Please work on your reading comprehension. Where did I say 12.13:1 should have been legal?

Stan
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Do you use engine simulation software that uses cylinder head flow files?
We have a package of more than 3000 DFW or FLW Files

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Re: Winner Of The Race Engine Challenge

Post by Steve.k » Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:37 am

Mike why not just set the cr as unlimited as this is a race engine challenge? Cr will get to a point of diminishing returns so let fall where it falls?

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Re: Winner Of The Race Engine Challenge

Post by pamotorman » Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:57 am

did they count the volume between the top ring and the top of the block and add it to the gasket and head chamber volume ?? no one answered my question

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Re: Winner Of The Race Engine Challenge

Post by CamKing » Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:02 pm

gmrocket wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:05 am
Hard limits work best.
Not when the competition doesn't have the ability to be 100% accurate when tech'ing the engines.
I was in charge of checking the .775" valve lift rule. Luckily, neither were close to .775".
When checking the lift at the retainer with a dial indicator, if the indicator is not 100% parallel to the valve guide, the indicator will read higher then it should.
With your way of thinking, if I measured .7751", I would have to DQ the engine. I've measured more cams then almost anyone, but with the equipment we have to work with, I can''t be 100% accurate.

What I've proposed for next year, is a penalty of 10 points for being under 1% over, 50 points for being 1-2% over, and DQ'ed for over 2%.
Mike Jones
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Re: Winner Of The Race Engine Challenge

Post by Warp Speed » Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:05 pm

Stan Weiss wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:10 am
Warp Speed wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:27 am
CamKing wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:03 am

For the record 12.13:1 compression is 1.018"% over the 12:1 limit. That would be about a 5hp advantage, and about a 1% advantage on total score.
Randy was almost 5% ahead of the next engine.
This is a great example, of why you always need to check everything on your engine. Measure, measure again, and when you're sure you're correct, measure one more time.

I learned from some of the greatest engine builders of their day. There was no magic to what they did. I figured out pretty quickly, that their "Speed secret" was being meticulous. They measured everything. If there wasn't a tool to measure something correctly, they made the tool to measure it.
For the record........it was as illegal as 14.1! Lol
Jay,
I look at this totally different. 14.1:1 for me means either the person was cheating or incompetent. 12.13:1 to me looks like just an honest mistake. Both illegal but to me a big difference.

Stan
I understand what your saying Stan, but a .010 piston to deck height error..............from a proffesional?
Especially entering into a class competition with stated rules in that area. Good thing it wasn't a customers who class races!

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