Winner Of The Race Engine Challenge

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Re: Winner Of The Race Engine Challenge

Post by PRH » Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:18 pm

Randy, I took that comment to be in reference to the suggestion of issuing penalties for being over the limit instead of being dq’d, as it pertains to future events.
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Re: Winner Of The Race Engine Challenge

Post by Warp Speed » Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:37 pm

GARY C wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:45 pm
CGT wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:33 pm
I like the no compression limit idea. The detonation contest would occur between the people who havent done any testing prior to the contest, or the less experienced back of the field guys.
This is one area where most engine builders push the limits to get the most out of a build.

One possible thing to add to this rule to keep it from going over board would be to require the competitors to make pulls at full operating temps.
How do you define "full operating temps"?

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Re: Winner Of The Race Engine Challenge

Post by Dave Koehler » Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:50 pm

Walter R. Malik wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:39 pm
I never decked this block.
It was a previously built "restricted" NASCAR CUP engine block which I got honed to get the bores right and yes, it is my responsibility to not presume the decks would be correct.
I screwed up, it is over.
I am glad to read that you have NEVER made a mistake in you life which cost you.
Does make you wonder what the NASCAR boys were up to or did they miss it also.
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Re: Winner Of The Race Engine Challenge

Post by GARY C » Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:57 pm

Warp Speed wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:37 pm
GARY C wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:45 pm
CGT wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:33 pm
I like the no compression limit idea. The detonation contest would occur between the people who havent done any testing prior to the contest, or the less experienced back of the field guys.
This is one area where most engine builders push the limits to get the most out of a build.

One possible thing to add to this rule to keep it from going over board would be to require the competitors to make pulls at full operating temps.
How do you define "full operating temps"?
For me it would be around 160 water and 200 oil but in a competition like this they may choose a different setting but one that would deter people from running the engine at a detonation limit that would harm the engine. Just a thought.

When you guys dyno a NASCAR engine do you run them below their on track temp?
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THE ABOVE POST IN NO WAY REFLECTS THE VIEWS OF SPEED TALK OR IT'S MEMBER AND SHOULD BE VIEWED AS ENTERTAINMENT ONLY...Thanks, The Management!

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Re: Winner Of The Race Engine Challenge

Post by Bazman » Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:58 pm

Walter R. Malik wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:21 pm
Steve.k wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:37 am
Mike why not just set the cr as unlimited as this is a race engine challenge? Cr will get to a point of diminishing returns so let fall where it falls?
I will answer that.
IF it is an unlimited compression rule ... if 120 some octane fuel is not supplied then it becomes merely which engine can withstand the most detonation.

A "Detonation Resistance" competition is not a very good contest.
Would it be possible to have knock sensors test within boundaries of what an endurance engine could tolerate e.g. any detonation spikes would have to be within tolerance an engine could live with for a long time. A street/strip engine could even be put through a street driving simulation - same for all to eliminate the dyno queens which will not tolerate loaded pulls from lower rpms. Or am I being too simplistic?

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Re: Winner Of The Race Engine Challenge

Post by GARY C » Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:00 pm

Dave Koehler wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:50 pm
Walter R. Malik wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:39 pm
I never decked this block.
It was a previously built "restricted" NASCAR CUP engine block which I got honed to get the bores right and yes, it is my responsibility to not presume the decks would be correct.
I screwed up, it is over.
I am glad to read that you have NEVER made a mistake in you life which cost you.
Does make you wonder what the NASCAR boys were up to or did they miss it also.
If it was ran in a class that only required them to pull 1 head during inspection I have a good idea which side they would choose. :)
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Re: Winner Of The Race Engine Challenge

Post by gmrocket » Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:47 pm

GARY C wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:57 pm
Warp Speed wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:37 pm
GARY C wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:45 pm


This is one area where most engine builders push the limits to get the most out of a build.

One possible thing to add to this rule to keep it from going over board would be to require the competitors to make pulls at full operating temps.
How do you define "full operating temps"?
For me it would be around 160 water and 200 oil but in a competition like this they may choose a different setting but one that would deter people from running the engine at a detonation limit that would harm the engine. Just a thought.

When you guys dyno a NASCAR engine do you run them below their on track temp?
less rules is why this competition is better in my opinion. It gives builders the leeway to experiment and not be held back.

To get my temp up as quick as possible I told the dyno operator to put a load on it at 3k when it was first fired.

The issue you could have with minimum oil temp is that some engines just can't do that..and would require a thermostatically controlled oil system on the dyno with a heat exchanger ..to prevent contaminated oil getting into someone else's engine if an engine blew up.

Lots of extra crap to do and work out..I think it's best with less of that . Here's what you got, work with it.

In the EMC one year you were given 5 minutes to get your engine up to 160. The big inch engines reached that minimum no problem.

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Re: Winner Of The Race Engine Challenge

Post by GARY C » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:29 pm

gmrocket wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:47 pm
GARY C wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:57 pm
Warp Speed wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:37 pm


How do you define "full operating temps"?
For me it would be around 160 water and 200 oil but in a competition like this they may choose a different setting but one that would deter people from running the engine at a detonation limit that would harm the engine. Just a thought.

When you guys dyno a NASCAR engine do you run them below their on track temp?
less rules is why this competition is better in my opinion. It gives builders the leeway to experiment and not be held back.

To get my temp up as quick as possible I told the dyno operator to put a load on it at 3k when it was first fired.

The issue you could have with minimum oil temp is that some engines just can't do that..and would require a thermostatically controlled oil system on the dyno with a heat exchanger ..to prevent contaminated oil getting into someone else's engine if an engine blew up.

Lots of extra crap to do and work out..I think it's best with less of that . Here's what you got, work with it.

In the EMC one year you were given 5 minutes to get your engine up to 160. The big inch engines reached that minimum no problem.
Yes what I am presenting may not even be doable in a competition like this and the less rules idea I think falls into Randy331's idea of a spec fuel and let the builder choose what compression he feels he can do with that fuel.

I think a limited set of rules opens up innovation to the market place but if that innovation only works on a cold engine on a dyno then is it really useful for what you guys do on a daily bases?

Just thinking out loud.
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THE ABOVE POST IN NO WAY REFLECTS THE VIEWS OF SPEED TALK OR IT'S MEMBER AND SHOULD BE VIEWED AS ENTERTAINMENT ONLY...Thanks, The Management!

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Re: Winner Of The Race Engine Challenge

Post by Walter R. Malik » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:55 pm

GARY C wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:29 pm
gmrocket wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:47 pm
GARY C wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:57 pm

For me it would be around 160 water and 200 oil but in a competition like this they may choose a different setting but one that would deter people from running the engine at a detonation limit that would harm the engine. Just a thought.

When you guys dyno a NASCAR engine do you run them below their on track temp?
less rules is why this competition is better in my opinion. It gives builders the leeway to experiment and not be held back.

To get my temp up as quick as possible I told the dyno operator to put a load on it at 3k when it was first fired.

The issue you could have with minimum oil temp is that some engines just can't do that..and would require a thermostatically controlled oil system on the dyno with a heat exchanger ..to prevent contaminated oil getting into someone else's engine if an engine blew up.

Lots of extra crap to do and work out..I think it's best with less of that . Here's what you got, work with it.

In the EMC one year you were given 5 minutes to get your engine up to 160. The big inch engines reached that minimum no problem.
Yes what I am presenting may not even be doable in a competition like this and the less rules idea I think falls into Randy331's idea of a spec fuel and let the builder choose what compression he feels he can do with that fuel.

I think a limited set of rules opens up innovation to the market place but if that innovation only works on a cold engine on a dyno then is it really useful for what you guys do on a daily bases?

Just thinking out loud.
These engines were not cold ... the dyno thermostat was set at 150 and most of my pulls were at about 155 water out and 180 oil. The air temp in the cell and outside was in the 80's.

In testing ... running it a bit hotter or colder made little difference although some engines probably would.
The fuel at the contest, ( VP MS109 ), was high enough in octane and low enough in RVP to handle it easily.
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Re: Winner Of The Race Engine Challenge

Post by GARY C » Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:12 pm

Walter R. Malik wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:55 pm
GARY C wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:29 pm
gmrocket wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:47 pm


less rules is why this competition is better in my opinion. It gives builders the leeway to experiment and not be held back.

To get my temp up as quick as possible I told the dyno operator to put a load on it at 3k when it was first fired.

The issue you could have with minimum oil temp is that some engines just can't do that..and would require a thermostatically controlled oil system on the dyno with a heat exchanger ..to prevent contaminated oil getting into someone else's engine if an engine blew up.

Lots of extra crap to do and work out..I think it's best with less of that . Here's what you got, work with it.

In the EMC one year you were given 5 minutes to get your engine up to 160. The big inch engines reached that minimum no problem.
Yes what I am presenting may not even be doable in a competition like this and the less rules idea I think falls into Randy331's idea of a spec fuel and let the builder choose what compression he feels he can do with that fuel.

I think a limited set of rules opens up innovation to the market place but if that innovation only works on a cold engine on a dyno then is it really useful for what you guys do on a daily bases?

Just thinking out loud.
These engines were not cold ... the dyno thermostat was set at 150 and most of my pulls were at about 155 water out and 180 oil. The air temp in the cell and outside was in the 80's.

In testing ... running it a bit hotter or colder made little difference although some engines probably would.
The fuel at the contest, ( VP MS109 ), was high enough in octane and low enough in RVP to handle it easily.
Cool, I didn't know what temps you guys run at, it's hard to tell from the videos looking at the dyno console. Yes the MS 109 is a good fuel.
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Re: Winner Of The Race Engine Challenge

Post by randy331 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:03 pm

Bazman wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:58 pm

Would it be possible to have knock sensors test within boundaries of what an endurance engine could tolerate e.g. any detonation spikes would have to be within tolerance an engine could live with for a long time. A street/strip engine could even be put through a street driving simulation - same for all to eliminate the dyno queens which will not tolerate loaded pulls from lower rpms. Or am I being too simplistic?
Eliminate the dyno queens ?
Isn't it a dyno contest ?
Do you really think the engines at EMC or REC are on the verge of failure ?
One of our engines we tested with went right in a dirt track car.
You don't win a dyno contest if the engine fails.

Spec fuel and no compression limit. Detonation costs power. Your not gonna make best power with the engine rattling.

Set a minimum temp if you want, but let that temp and what the spec fuel is be well known early.


Randy

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Re: Winner Of The Race Engine Challenge

Post by Tom Walker » Sat Oct 13, 2018 8:47 am

One engine at the REC was in a car 5 days before the event according to the owner, and I believe, going right back into the car.
Real life engine that put down an impressive score on the dyno. If that is a dyno queen, then bring more of them!

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Re: Winner Of The Race Engine Challenge

Post by WeingartnerRacing » Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:32 am

My 406 that finished 6th ended up in a full size truck that he drove to town 30 miles away and raced it at the track. My 540 from emc ended up in my camaro and ran 5.70s in the 1/8th. The 496 from emc ended up in another camaro that went mid 9s. Not dyno queens.
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Re: Winner Of The Race Engine Challenge

Post by Walter R. Malik » Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:51 am

WeingartnerRacing wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:32 am
My 406 that finished 6th ended up in a full size truck that he drove to town 30 miles away and raced it at the track. My 540 from emc ended up in my camaro and ran 5.70s in the 1/8th. The 496 from emc ended up in another camaro that went mid 9s. Not dyno queens.
Dyno queens??? Just people who have never been there, spouting off. :roll: :-P Consider the source.
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Re: Winner Of The Race Engine Challenge

Post by randy331 » Sat Oct 13, 2018 11:35 am

Question to those who believe all EMC/REC engines are dyno queens and on the edge of failure.

What could you do that would gain score (average power) but put the engine right at xxx dyno pulls from failure?

What could you do that you'd know, I got 12 pulls left, then BOOM ???,.... and that change was worth score ?

I mean I'm sure I could do something to an engine that would insure failure, but how do you know how much time it had left ??

Randy

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