Winner Of The Race Engine Challenge

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Re: Winner Of The Race Engine Challenge

Post by CamKing » Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:12 pm

Steve.k wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:37 am
Mike why not just set the cr as unlimited as this is a race engine challenge? Cr will get to a point of diminishing returns so let fall where it falls?
I really wish it wasn't named "Race Engine Challenge". In the future, they may have a class for all-out racing engines, but this class is supposed to represent a cutting edge street/strip engine. One of the challenges with making the rules, was to make sure the engines represent something a person could buy/build to run in a street/strip application, and not just be a dyno queen, that's built to make as much power as possible for a few dozen dyno pulls. 12:1 compression and .775" gross valve lift are both on the high side of what you would see in a good street/strip engine, but they're not unrealistic. That was the thinking behind them.
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Re: Winner Of The Race Engine Challenge

Post by CamKing » Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:16 pm

Warp Speed wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:05 pm
I understand what your saying Stan, but a .010 piston to deck height error..............from a proffesional?
Especially entering into a class competition with stated rules in that area. Good thing it wasn't a customers who class races!
There's no excuse for not knowing that one deck was .010" lower then the other, but he must of not known, because he chose which head to take off.
If he pulled the other head, he would have been the winner.
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Re: Winner Of The Race Engine Challenge

Post by Steve.k » Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:19 pm

Ok yes see what your saying. Street/strip class so to speak.

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Re: Winner Of The Race Engine Challenge

Post by gmrocket » Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:24 pm

CamKing wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:02 pm
gmrocket wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:05 am
Hard limits work best.
Not when the competition doesn't have the ability to be 100% accurate when tech'ing the engines.
I was in charge of checking the .775" valve lift rule. Luckily, neither were close to .775".
When checking the lift at the retainer with a dial indicator, if the indicator is not 100% parallel to the valve guide, the indicator will read higher then it should.
With your way of thinking, if I measured .7751", I would have to DQ the engine. I've measured more cams then almost anyone, but with the equipment we have to work with, I can''t be 100% accurate.

What I've proposed for next year, is a penalty of 10 points for being under 1% over, 50 points for being 1-2% over, and DQ'ed for over 2%.
You would still need to be 100% accurate at the 1% 10 point deduction, before going into the 2% and over DQ territory.

There would still be a hard limit. Does it matter at that tipping point , or if it's 12:1 max?

It would be the same as saying max comp is 1% under 12, if you go over that 1% your out.

That's still a number used to justify it being within the rules

Whether everyone shoots for the max 12, or 1% over , which I guarantee will happen. You still have that point, it's ok or not.

Can't imagine having more than one limit, with points deductions between ok or not, being better.

Would the points deductions be calculated for different cubic inch engines? Smaller engines with lower scores would get hurt more by those rules
Last edited by gmrocket on Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Winner Of The Race Engine Challenge

Post by CamKing » Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:32 pm

gmrocket wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:24 pm

You would still need to be 100% accurate at the 1% 10 point deduction, before going into the 2% DQ territory.

There would still be a hard limit. Does it matter at that tipping point , or if it's 12:1 max?

It would be the same as saying max comp is 1% under 12, if you go over that 1% you out.

That's still a number used to justify it being within the rules

Whether everyone shoots for the max 12, or 1% over , which I guarantee will happen. You still have that point, it's ok or not.
I think there should be a point penalty for being over the limit, even a small amount. That way most people will not try and push the limit.
If the limit is 12:1, and they end up 12.1:1 they lose 10 points. I can tell you, that extra .1 of compression is not worth 10 points.
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Re: Winner Of The Race Engine Challenge

Post by Warp Speed » Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:57 pm

CamKing wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:32 pm
gmrocket wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:24 pm

You would still need to be 100% accurate at the 1% 10 point deduction, before going into the 2% DQ territory.

There would still be a hard limit. Does it matter at that tipping point , or if it's 12:1 max?

It would be the same as saying max comp is 1% under 12, if you go over that 1% you out.

That's still a number used to justify it being within the rules

Whether everyone shoots for the max 12, or 1% over , which I guarantee will happen. You still have that point, it's ok or not.
I think there should be a point penalty for being over the limit, even a small amount. That way most people will not try and push the limit.
If the limit is 12:1, and they end up 12.1:1 they lose 10 points. I can tell you, that extra .1 of compression is not worth 10 points.
No sense in complicating things. If it's over, your DQd, end of story. It's not a judgment call, it's simple measurements and math. This is basic engine blueprinting!
If the limit is 12.1, 12.04 is the tolerance. This gives a little room for componant temp and carbon and the human factor. Even in our ultra competative situation, I don't think we let anything out the door over 11.94. That is the longest stroke, smallest chamber ect. Worst case. It's like that in any limited class racing.

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Re: Winner Of The Race Engine Challenge

Post by E.R. Racing » Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:17 pm

Warp Speed wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:57 pm

No sense in complicating things. If it's over, your DQd, end of story. It's not a judgment call, it's simple measurements and math. This is basic engine blueprinting!
If the limit is 12.1, 12.04 is the tolerance. This gives a little room for componant temp and carbon and the human factor. Even in our ultra competative situation, I don't think we let anything out the door over 11.94. That is the longest stroke, smallest chamber ect. Worst case. It's like that in any limited class racing.
We made extra sure that we weren't on the limit with our engine. Every hard rule, we were quite a margin away from the limit simply because of this. Way under on compression (too much so actually), way under on valve lift, and everything else that was measurable. We were 1/2 a point under on compression. What is another .4 compression points worth in power? :D

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Re: Winner Of The Race Engine Challenge

Post by Walter R. Malik » Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:21 pm

Steve.k wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:37 am
Mike why not just set the cr as unlimited as this is a race engine challenge? Cr will get to a point of diminishing returns so let fall where it falls?
I will answer that.
IF it is an unlimited compression rule ... if 120 some octane fuel is not supplied then it becomes merely which engine can withstand the most detonation.

A "Detonation Resistance" competition is not a very good contest.
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Re: Winner Of The Race Engine Challenge

Post by Walter R. Malik » Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:23 pm

pamotorman wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:57 am
did they count the volume between the top ring and the top of the block and add it to the gasket and head chamber volume ?? no one answered my question
YES .
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Re: Winner Of The Race Engine Challenge

Post by CGT » Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:33 pm

I like the no compression limit idea. The detonation contest would occur between the people who havent done any testing prior to the contest, or the less experienced back of the field guys.
"How or Y do you think I get all this $hit, I read all of you all builds and desktop dyno them with all the correct info and I've got your build."

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Re: Winner Of The Race Engine Challenge

Post by Walter R. Malik » Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:39 pm

Warp Speed wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:05 pm
Stan Weiss wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:10 am
Warp Speed wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:27 am


For the record........it was as illegal as 14.1! Lol
Jay,
I look at this totally different. 14.1:1 for me means either the person was cheating or incompetent. 12.13:1 to me looks like just an honest mistake. Both illegal but to me a big difference.

Stan
I understand what your saying Stan, but a .010 piston to deck height error..............from a proffesional?
Especially entering into a class competition with stated rules in that area. Good thing it wasn't a customers who class races!
I never decked this block.
It was a previously built "restricted" NASCAR CUP engine block which I got honed to get the bores right and yes, it is my responsibility to not presume the decks would be correct.
I screwed up, it is over.
I am glad to read that you have NEVER made a mistake in you life which cost you.
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Re: Winner Of The Race Engine Challenge

Post by GARY C » Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:45 pm

CGT wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:33 pm
I like the no compression limit idea. The detonation contest would occur between the people who havent done any testing prior to the contest, or the less experienced back of the field guys.
This is one area where most engine builders push the limits to get the most out of a build.

One possible thing to add to this rule to keep it from going over board would be to require the competitors to make pulls at full operating temps.
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Re: Winner Of The Race Engine Challenge

Post by Warp Speed » Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:24 pm

Walter R. Malik wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:39 pm
Warp Speed wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:05 pm
Stan Weiss wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:10 am


Jay,
I look at this totally different. 14.1:1 for me means either the person was cheating or incompetent. 12.13:1 to me looks like just an honest mistake. Both illegal but to me a big difference.

Stan
I understand what your saying Stan, but a .010 piston to deck height error..............from a proffesional?
Especially entering into a class competition with stated rules in that area. Good thing it wasn't a customers who class races!
I never decked this block.
It was a previously built "restricted" NASCAR CUP engine block which I got honed to get the bores right and yes, it is my responsibility to not presume the decks would be correct.
I screwed up, it is over.
I am glad to read that you have NEVER made a mistake in you life which cost you.
Hahaha, I've made plenty of mistakes. But measuring piston to deck clearance on every hole is pretty basic engine blueprinting. Just like pouring every chamber, and going off of the smallest.
Again, basic stuff........

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Re: Winner Of The Race Engine Challenge

Post by PRH » Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:59 pm

No sense in complicating things. If it's over, your DQd, end of story.
I agree.
Somewhat handy with a die grinder.

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Re: Winner Of The Race Engine Challenge

Post by Walter R. Malik » Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:05 pm

PRH wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:59 pm
No sense in complicating things. If it's over, your DQd, end of story.
I agree.
I don't know who originally said this and, I don't understand why.
From the beginning, I was saying to move-forward and let it all go; "Come back next year with a vengeance".
People ask questions so, I wanted to answer them as best I could.
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