Winner Of The Race Engine Challenge

[CamKing]

and the other was 12.13 /1.

For the record 12.13:1 compression is 1.018"% over the 12:1 limit. That would be about a 5hp advantage, and about a 1% advantage on total score.
Randy was almost 5% ahead of the next engine.
This is a great example, of why you always need to check everything on your engine. Measure, measure again, and when you're sure you're correct, measure one more time.

I learned from some of the greatest engine builders of their day. There was no magic to what they did. I figured out pretty quickly, that their "Speed secret" was being meticulous. They measured everything. If there wasn't a tool to measure something correctly, they made the tool to measure it.

[PRH]

and the other was 12.13 /1.

For the record 12.13:1 compression is 1.018"% over the 12:1 limit. That would be about a 5hp advantage, and about a 1% advantage on total score.
Randy was almost 5% ahead of the next engine.
This is a great example, of why you always need to check everything on your engine. Measure, measure again, and when you're sure you're correct, measure one more time.

Is that 5hp based on 4 or 8 cylinders being 1.018% over the limit?

[CamKing]

and the other was 12.13 /1.

For the record 12.13:1 compression is 1.018"% over the 12:1 limit. That would be about a 5hp advantage, and about a 1% advantage on total score.
Randy was almost 5% ahead of the next engine.
This is a great example, of why you always need to check everything on your engine. Measure, measure again, and when you're sure you're correct, measure one more time.

Is that 5hp based on 4 or 8 cylinders being 1.018% over the limit?

No. I based it off of all 8 cylinders being 12.13:1. If 4 cylinders were less then 12:1, then the power gain would be much less.

[Warp Speed]

and the other was 12.13 /1.

For the record 12.13:1 compression is 1.018"% over the 12:1 limit. That would be about a 5hp advantage, and about a 1% advantage on total score.
Randy was almost 5% ahead of the next engine.
This is a great example, of why you always need to check everything on your engine. Measure, measure again, and when you're sure you're correct, measure one more time.

I learned from some of the greatest engine builders of their day. There was no magic to what they did. I figured out pretty quickly, that their "Speed secret" was being meticulous. They measured everything. If there wasn't a tool to measure something correctly, they made the tool to measure it.

For the record........it was as illegal as 14.1! Lol

[gmrocket]

Scores can be extremely close in these deals.

As an example, in the inline class, before all this, second and third were only separated by a single point. Then this, now first and second only separated by one point.

If certain rules were allowed to be over by 1%, that would have changed the finishing order if the third was over by a percent or so, and second wasn't.


It doesn't take any more effort to be at the limit than it does to be over.

Like the cubic inch calculation..it's not rounded off like normal , if your over by .1 , you go up to the next full number. So your best at .99

Hard limits work best.

[Stan Weiss]

and the other was 12.13 /1.

For the record 12.13:1 compression is 1.018"% over the 12:1 limit. That would be about a 5hp advantage, and about a 1% advantage on total score.
Randy was almost 5% ahead of the next engine.
This is a great example, of why you always need to check everything on your engine. Measure, measure again, and when you're sure you're correct, measure one more time.

I learned from some of the greatest engine builders of their day. There was no magic to what they did. I figured out pretty quickly, that their "Speed secret" was being meticulous. They measured everything. If there wasn't a tool to measure something correctly, they made the tool to measure it.

For the record........it was as illegal as 14.1! Lol

Jay,
I look at this totally different. 14.1:1 for me means either the person was cheating or incompetent. 12.13:1 to me looks like just an honest mistake. Both illegal but to me a big difference.

Stan

[gmrocket]

For the record 12.13:1 compression is 1.018"% over the 12:1 limit. That would be about a 5hp advantage, and about a 1% advantage on total score.
Randy was almost 5% ahead of the next engine.
This is a great example, of why you always need to check everything on your engine. Measure, measure again, and when you're sure you're correct, measure one more time.

I learned from some of the greatest engine builders of their day. There was no magic to what they did. I figured out pretty quickly, that their "Speed secret" was being meticulous. They measured everything. If there wasn't a tool to measure something correctly, they made the tool to measure it.

For the record........it was as illegal as 14.1! Lol

Jay,
I look at this totally different. 14.1:1 for me means either the person was cheating or incompetent. 12.13:1 to me looks like just an honest mistake. Both illegal but to me a big difference.

Stan

I just posted why that can have real consequences when scores are so close

[MadBill]

I don't know how it's spelled out in the rules, but also, tolerances need to be called out on the calculated numbers. E.g., as I understand mathematical convention, if the rule reads "12:1 CR maximum" then 12.49:1 rounds to 12 and should be legal, but if it reads "12.00:1 maximum" then 12.005 rounds to 12.01 and would not be.

Years ago a friend of mine set the local track record for 1600 cc Formula Fords (60+ car fields) but then flunked Tech due to the lift on one valve being 0.005" over the legal max. This was later traced to one of the individually legally blueprinted rocker arms having been installed in the wrong location, leaving another valve lift equally shy of the limit.

[Stan Weiss]

For the record........it was as illegal as 14.1! Lol

Jay,
I look at this totally different. 14.1:1 for me means either the person was cheating or incompetent. 12.13:1 to me looks like just an honest mistake. Both illegal but to me a big difference.

Stan

I just posted why that can have real consequences when scores are so close

Please work on your reading comprehension. Where did I say 12.13:1 should have been legal?

Stan

[Steve.k]

Mike why not just set the cr as unlimited as this is a race engine challenge? Cr will get to a point of diminishing returns so let fall where it falls?

[pamotorman]

did they count the volume between the top ring and the top of the block and add it to the gasket and head chamber volume ?? no one answered my question

[CamKing]

Hard limits work best.

Not when the competition doesn't have the ability to be 100% accurate when tech'ing the engines.
I was in charge of checking the .775" valve lift rule. Luckily, neither were close to .775".
When checking the lift at the retainer with a dial indicator, if the indicator is not 100% parallel to the valve guide, the indicator will read higher then it should.
With your way of thinking, if I measured .7751", I would have to DQ the engine. I've measured more cams then almost anyone, but with the equipment we have to work with, I can''t be 100% accurate.

What I've proposed for next year, is a penalty of 10 points for being under 1% over, 50 points for being 1-2% over, and DQ'ed for over 2%.

[Warp Speed]

For the record 12.13:1 compression is 1.018"% over the 12:1 limit. That would be about a 5hp advantage, and about a 1% advantage on total score.
Randy was almost 5% ahead of the next engine.
This is a great example, of why you always need to check everything on your engine. Measure, measure again, and when you're sure you're correct, measure one more time.

I learned from some of the greatest engine builders of their day. There was no magic to what they did. I figured out pretty quickly, that their "Speed secret" was being meticulous. They measured everything. If there wasn't a tool to measure something correctly, they made the tool to measure it.

For the record........it was as illegal as 14.1! Lol

Jay,
I look at this totally different. 14.1:1 for me means either the person was cheating or incompetent. 12.13:1 to me looks like just an honest mistake. Both illegal but to me a big difference.

Stan

I understand what your saying Stan, but a .010 piston to deck height error..............from a proffesional?
Especially entering into a class competition with stated rules in that area. Good thing it wasn't a customers who class races!

[CamKing]

Mike why not just set the cr as unlimited as this is a race engine challenge? Cr will get to a point of diminishing returns so let fall where it falls?

I really wish it wasn't named "Race Engine Challenge". In the future, they may have a class for all-out racing engines, but this class is supposed to represent a cutting edge street/strip engine. One of the challenges with making the rules, was to make sure the engines represent something a person could buy/build to run in a street/strip application, and not just be a dyno queen, that's built to make as much power as possible for a few dozen dyno pulls. 12:1 compression and .775" gross valve lift are both on the high side of what you would see in a good street/strip engine, but they're not unrealistic. That was the thinking behind them.

[CamKing]

I understand what your saying Stan, but a .010 piston to deck height error..............from a proffesional?
Especially entering into a class competition with stated rules in that area. Good thing it wasn't a customers who class races!

There's no excuse for not knowing that one deck was .010" lower then the other, but he must of not known, because he chose which head to take off.
If he pulled the other head, he would have been the winner.