Volumetric Efficiency

[RevTheory]

I know exactly what is going on there is no confusion. But you have reminded me why I hate forums so much so I will spare you any more comments from me as I shouldn't have wasted my time posting the R&D data. I thought people might learn something but I was wrong.

You're not at all wrong. There are plenty of guys who've gotten sick of the bs too and simply lurk and hope for good info without the usual ego bs.

[Desertrunner]

I believe we are mistaking pressure waves and inertia as being the same.......?

I know exactly what is going on there is no confusion. But you have reminded me why I hate forums so much so I will spare you any more comments from me as I shouldn't have wasted my time posting the R&D data. I thought people might learn something but I was wrong.

Didn't mean to get your feathers in a ruffle that's for sure, but not really sure what I said that warranted that response. Was I supposed to just say "ooh, awww, wow, amazing"?
I do a little of this type of testing myself, and was just trying to get your meaning clearified.
Sorry.......

Your problem was that you basically said I didn't know the difference between pressure waves and inertia instead of asking a question you stated it as fact that you had all the knowledge and I am confused. You didn't leave the comment open to debate or for you to learn instead you stated your opinion as fact.
You say that you "do a little of this type of testing"
then tell me
"What is inertia and how does it increase VE in your mind if it isn't pressure or more clearly the increasing of pressure at the Intake valve before closing. How is it possible to get a VE greater then 100 unless the pressure applied to the intake valve when closing is not above 1 bar.

Go for it, I want to hear your understanding of Inertia

[Stan Weiss]

I do not have the budget to do any of this testing But from other things I have seen I would say inertia is more of a constant pressure / force where as a wave will vary between both positive and negative pressure.

Stan

[Warp Speed]

I know exactly what is going on there is no confusion. But you have reminded me why I hate forums so much so I will spare you any more comments from me as I shouldn't have wasted my time posting the R&D data. I thought people might learn something but I was wrong.

You're not at all wrong. There are plenty of guys who've gotten sick of the bs too and simply lurk and hope for good info without the usual ego bs.

The only time you post these days is to pile on something like this with no foundation!
You create way more bs than technical like 100-1.
You need to stay out of it........

[Tuner]

You are correct, Stan. Actual VE is a theoretical calculation based on the amount of air ingested into the engine. With correct valve events, the more air going into the engine, the more that will be "trapped" in the cylinder/combustion chamber. I don't believe that it is possible to get a VE of much over 105% without the aid of supercharging, turbocharging, etc.. As far as valve events are concerned, there is a very fine line between closing the exhaust valve at the exact correct time and scavenging intake fluid into the exhaust system.
To answer a question posed in a previous post, very high exhaust temperature (red/glowing headers) can usually be attributed to very lean intake mixture.

On the glowing headers, does the lean mix burn slow and then continue burning in exhaust? Or ?

Glowing headers can result from any of three conditions, all of which result in a LATE (not necessarily slow) burn.
Excessively lean or excessively rich mixture, or retarded timing will result in glowing headers.
Engine misfires are another cause of glowing headers.

Headers glow because steel glows when it is hot. In a dark place, like on the track at night or in a dyno cell with the lights off, steel is blood red at about 1100 F and cherry red at 1200. Depending on compression ratio, valve timing, ignition timing and A/F, most engine's "normal" exhaust temperatures are a bit hotter than that.

Temperature-Color chart here for daylight, the colors are much brighter in the dark
http://www.blksmth.com/heat_colors.htm

[Warp Speed]

I know exactly what is going on there is no confusion. But you have reminded me why I hate forums so much so I will spare you any more comments from me as I shouldn't have wasted my time posting the R&D data. I thought people might learn something but I was wrong.

Didn't mean to get your feathers in a ruffle that's for sure, but not really sure what I said that warranted that response. Was I supposed to just say "ooh, awww, wow, amazing"?
I do a little of this type of testing myself, and was just trying to get your meaning clearified.
Sorry.......

Your problem was that you basically said I didn't know the difference between pressure waves and inertia instead of asking a question you stated it as fact that you had all the knowledge and I am confused. You didn't leave the comment open to debate or for you to learn instead you stated your opinion as fact.
You say that you "do a little of this type of testing"
then tell me
"What is inertia and how does it increase VE in your mind if it isn't pressure or more clearly the increasing of pressure at the Intake valve before closing. How is it possible to get a VE greater then 100 unless the pressure applied to the intake valve when closing is not above 1 bar.

Go for it, I want to hear your understanding of Inertia

I didn't really "say" anything, and was more of a question......hence the question mark at the end.
As I stated earlier, I was just trying to get some clarification on your statement.
Your problem is obviously a chip on your shoulder!
BTW........how much mass does air have to create inertia you speak of?!?
I believe we are simply battling semantics here, again, why I asked the question in the first place!
Sheesh......

[Desertrunner]

Were doing well Warp, we have made massive progress.
A "Chip on my shoulder"

I love when I cut you some one some slack you then get smart ass. You have no idea who I am or how smart I am. I gave the discussion a chance and you proved my first call was the correct one. You don't want to learn and you don't want to listen.

[Warp Speed]

Were doing well Warp, we have made massive progress.
A "Chip on my shoulder"

I love when I cut you some one some slack you then get smart ass. You have no idea who I am or how smart I am. I gave the discussion a chance and you proved my first call was the correct one. You don't want to learn and you don't want to listen.

Just because I asked a question......lol
You obviously don't want to discuss anything, you just want to argue, and I'm not really sure about what? Lol
Are you going to answer any of my questions, or just keep jabbing for no reason?

[RevTheory]

This is why I said what I said and don't bother trying to ask questions or contribute. I'm not alone in this either.

[Tuner]

I believe we are mistaking pressure waves and inertia as being the same.......?

I know exactly what is going on there is no confusion. But you have reminded me why I hate forums so much so I will spare you any more comments from me as I shouldn't have wasted my time posting the R&D data. I thought people might learn something but I was wrong.

This post, Desertrunner, is where you went off the rails. Warp Speed did not say "you", he said "we", volunteering that between the two of you there may be a difference in semantics, the meanings of words, such as, one man's push is another man's understeer, loose is oversteer, etc.

Why not answer Warp Speed's question? Define your perception of the distinction between pressure wave and inertia. All that is necessary here is to understand each other's lingo.

(..... and .... there is a distinct possibility he has access to more instrumentation, dyno time and hours in the trenches, than most ....)

[Warp Speed]

I believe we are mistaking pressure waves and inertia as being the same.......?

I know exactly what is going on there is no confusion. But you have reminded me why I hate forums so much so I will spare you any more comments from me as I shouldn't have wasted my time posting the R&D data. I thought people might learn something but I was wrong.

This post, Desertrunner, is where you went off the rails. Warp Speed did not say "you", he said "we", volunteering that between the two of you there may be a difference in semantics, the meanings of words, such as, one man's push is another man's understeer, loose is oversteer, etc.

Why not answer Warp Speed's question? Define your perception of the distinction between pressure wave and inertia. All that is necessary here is to understand each other's lingo.

(..... and .... there is a distinct possibility he has access to more instrumentation, dyno time and hours in the trenches, than most ....)

Exactly! ^^^^^^^^
I even stated that it was probably a semantics deal but...........?

[Stan Weiss]

Were doing well Warp, we have made massive progress.
A "Chip on my shoulder"

I love when I cut you some one some slack you then get smart ass. You have no idea who I am or how smart I am. I gave the discussion a chance and you proved my first call was the correct one. You don't want to learn and you don't want to listen.

On your first point, I think that hold true about many who post here.

On your second point. I can be wrong. But this leads me to believe there will be no discussion as it does not appear that you are open minded.

Stan

[vwchuck]

VE is NOT king.
MASSFLOW is the king...

[David Redszus]

VE is NOT king.
MASSFLOW is the king...

VE is a measure of MASSFLOW; actual mass flow divided by potential mass flow.

The term "volumetric" refers only to the air mass potentially occupied by a given displacement.

An 1.0 liter cylinder should contain .00131 lbs of air per revolution, depending on ambient conditions.
How much air mass actually contained is indicated by VE.

[David Redszus]

Sometimes our technical vocabulary adds to our confusion rather than to its elimination.

Inertia refers to the ability of a mass to remain at rest; to resist movement.

Momentum refers to the energy contained by an object due to its mass and velocity.

Pressure waves do not have mass, but they do have velocity, often traveling in both directions.

Air velocity refers to air particle velocity, which is usually much slower than the velocity of pressure waves.
Particle velocity is the velocity of a molecule of air which has mass.
Since it is the action of pressure waves that cause air particle motion, it is easy to see why particle velocity
cannot exceed wave velocity.