Aluminium vs Steel rods

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MadBill
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Re: Aluminium vs Steel rods

Post by MadBill » Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:12 pm

swampbuggy wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:26 pm
STEVE K....I was just on Crower's web site and it stated that a 6.250" S.B.C. Titanium rod weighed 548 grams, wow i would not have thought it would have been that heavy ?? 6.00" = 495 gr. 5.700" = 480 gr....
As a 'glass half empty' thinker might say, "Titanium: Heavier than aluminum, weaker than steel."
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Re: Aluminium vs Steel rods

Post by DrillDawg » Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:13 pm

Just make sure that the Ti. big ends are coated, as Ti. does not like to rub Ti.
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Re: Aluminium vs Steel rods

Post by Steve.k » Sat Aug 04, 2018 9:08 am

That is interesting for sure. Good friend of mine runs ti in his 979 cube motor.

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Re: Aluminium vs Steel rods

Post by Steve.k » Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:10 am

He swears by titanium and nothing but. Holds the worlds quickest natural aspirated title. Engine by Ron Miller.

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Re: Aluminium vs Steel rods

Post by swampbuggy » Sat Aug 04, 2018 1:47 pm

DrillDawg, you are correct in saying that Titanium rods MAY gall on their side surfaces where they touch each other between the two rods. GM run into problems with their Titanium rods in the High Output LS engines employed in some of the Corvettes. Mark H. , BTW never heard what they did to fix the problem, anybody know ????

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Re: Aluminium vs Steel rods

Post by engineguyBill » Sat Aug 04, 2018 2:53 pm

I believe that GM and others are using various cryogenic treatment processes on Titanium materials. These processes are used extensively in the aerospace and aircraft industries. Am also guessing that rod manufacturers such as Oliver, Crower, etc, are using this treatment/process on their Ti rods as well.
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Re: Aluminium vs Steel rods

Post by DrillDawg » Sat Aug 04, 2018 4:20 pm

Arrow Precision titanium connecting rods are coated with Chromium Nitride (CrN) applied by the physical vapour deposition (PVD) process.

The CrN coating produces a thin, wear resistant layer on the working surfaces of the rod that significantly increases the component life when compared to an uncoated part by providing a hard wearing layer between the rod and its neighbouring components.
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Re: Aluminium vs Steel rods

Post by stealth » Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:47 am

pdq67 wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:14 pm
Warp Speed wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:09 am
swampbuggy wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:45 am
Warpspeed....does "anybody" know the molecular makeup of a NASCAR Pankl connecting rod ??? And is the MIN. rod journal diameter 1.850" ??? thanks Mark H. A.K.A. Swampbuggy. :D
Yes, minimum is 1.1850 rod pin.
No, the material is prepriatory to Pankl, they keep it very secret.
Well then, I have $10 to help anybody that will send a Pankl rod off to a materials Lab. for alloy checking if anybody that has a spare one wants to do it?

I have a sneaking suspension that they are made out of a slightly modified alloy of 300M!! Like I said earlier, there's only a handful off steel alloys that are better than 300M for rods and such.. GM did their homework back then when they came up with 300M and the dammed stuff is relatively cheap AND, "tough as REBAR"!!!

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Re: Aluminium vs Steel rods

Post by stealth » Sun Aug 05, 2018 12:01 pm

Okay...just to bring back some history on engine parts and their materials progress though-out time

Valve spring retainers are a good example and compare nicely to connecting rods and material selection..

Pre 70’s. Steel
1970-80’s aluminum was the ticket
1990-2000’s. Titanium
2010... Steel (back to steel..of course better alloy)

Just food for thought...
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Re: Aluminium vs Steel rods

Post by engineguyBill » Sun Aug 05, 2018 2:52 pm

stealth wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 12:01 pm
Okay...just to bring back some history on engine parts and their materials progress though-out time

Valve spring retainers are a good example and compare nicely to connecting rods and material selection..

Pre 70’s. Steel
1970-80’s aluminum was the ticket
1990-2000’s. Titanium
2010... Steel (back to steel..of course better alloy)

Just food for thought...
Actually, aluminum valve spring retainers date back to the 60's and were very popular at the time (even with the tell-tale silver specks under the valve covers and in the oil). I think you will find that Titanium retainers are still used quite extensively to this day . . . . . . . . . . Not all engine combinations "need" Titanium retainers, therefore there is no reason to spend the extra bucks for them.
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Re: Aluminium vs Steel rods

Post by DCal » Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:47 pm

engineguyBill wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:57 pm
Yes, Pankl is the 'P' in CP (Calvert Pankl) which was established in the late 90's and bought CARRILLO in 2003 or so. Pankl is one of the largest conglomerates in Europe, headquartered in Austria and is one of the largest employers in that country. Pankl builds military equipment, such as helicopters, so they do have access to all sorts of propiotary materials and manufacturing processes.
Hi Bill. Its been interesting having both the CEO and President of CP-Carrillo at my house for the last 4 or 5 day. Every nite we check this post to see what the experts say. I think CP purchased Carrillo in 2008 but I'll ask Snake in a bit.

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Re: Aluminium vs Steel rods

Post by Steve.k » Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:00 pm

Carrillo also sells alloy rods. Put them on , would be interesting to here there story!!

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Re: Aluminium vs Steel rods

Post by MadBill » Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:01 pm

engineguyBill wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 2:52 pm
. . . . . . . Not all engine combinations "need" Titanium retainers, therefore there is no reason to spend the extra bucks for them.
And for that matter, the very best (and equally expensive) tool steel retainers weigh within a couple of grams of Ti and don't get et up by the damper coils...
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Re: Aluminium vs Steel rods

Post by Kevin Johnson » Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:53 pm

Here is the patent class for Means For Molding Powdered Metal: https://patents.justia.com/patents-by-u ... ion/425/78

I have not looked through numerous patents but am speculating that pre-green-pressing means exist to vary incrementally by layer the composition of the powders from the outer morphology through to whatever core depth is chosen. Some such patents may not be accessible/visible due to security concerns.

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Re: Aluminium vs Steel rods

Post by Kevin Johnson » Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:36 pm

Kevin Johnson wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:53 pm
Here is the patent class for Means For Molding Powdered Metal: https://patents.justia.com/patents-by-u ... ion/425/78

I have not looked through numerous patents but am speculating that pre-green-pressing means exist to vary incrementally by layer the composition of the powders from the outer morphology through to whatever core depth is chosen. Some such patents may not be accessible/visible due to security concerns.
https://patents.google.com/patent/US201 ... en#citedBy

The reason I posted here rather than the other powdered metal rod thread is the mention of Titanium and it reminded me of the sinter-forged Ti rods made by GKN for Porsche many moons ago.

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