1960's engine wars

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

Moderator: Team

hoffman900
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 3460
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:42 pm
Location:

Re: 1960's engine wars

Post by hoffman900 »

PackardV8 wrote: Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:25 am Wandering somewhat off topic into bikes, we might as well wander into EVs.
rfoll wrote: Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:20 pmOne of the things about the new cars is the street manners.
For seventy years I've built rods and race cars, driven the fastest showroom stockers available, including a sampling of the new Vette/Mustang/Hellcat ilk; they're mind-bendingly fast.

I've been building ICEs for more than fifty years. The first time I drove the Tesla, engaged "Ludicrous" and all one's previous street car experiences become so last century. I knew how the blacksmith felt. Standing over a roaring forge on the side of a dirt road, pounding on a red hot horseshoe, he sees his first car go by. "Well, that changes things."
"Tesla's Model S P100D is the fastest accelerating production car in the world, thanks to a Spaceballs-inspired software update. In a recent Motor Trend test, the Model S P100D hit 0-60 mph in 2.275507139 seconds. Launching a Model S P100D (weighing 5,062 with gear and driver) in full-on Ludicrous mode snaps your body in a manner that is utterly impossible to replicate in any other street-legal production car on normal tires and dry asphalt."
What makes it so mind-bending is not just the rate of acceleration, as the fastest street cars I've been in have gone almost that quick. However, the Tesla does it in utter silence and comfort. The fast street rods revved high, spun the tires, made smoke, rattled, shook, and one was always hoping it would stay together and stay straight. And the Tesla comes with four-wheel drive and a warranty; a year-round luxury sedan.

Your opinions and results may vary, but you owe yourself a test drive. The Tesla showroom will be pleased to schedule one, as that's all they do is show, explain and test drive. They can't try to sell you one.
Everything has its place. Most here are in love with a time that has passed by. That is fine, but they need to get out of the way of progress (progress will happen regardless - and it doesn’t matter who is elected or whatever internet article is shared on social media).

I’m most interested in the hybrid systems like you see in World Endurance / LeMans cars. If I can use something else to supplement the ICE to gain performance, than why not? This is Speedtalk after all...

Anyway, going back to the original post. I have no idea, other than the restriction being 530cid, stock castings, but anything else goes, I give the nod to the SOHC cammer. With today’s technologies and a blank check, no doubt the valvetrain can be made to work.
-Bob
Turbo231
Member
Member
Posts: 118
Joined: Wed May 23, 2018 4:42 pm
Location: Nashville, TN

Re: 1960's engine wars

Post by Turbo231 »

PackardV8 wrote: Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:25 am Wandering somewhat off topic into bikes, we might as well wander into EVs.
rfoll wrote: Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:20 pmOne of the things about the new cars is the street manners.
For seventy years I've built rods and race cars, driven the fastest showroom stockers available, including a sampling of the new Vette/Mustang/Hellcat ilk; they're mind-bendingly fast.

I've been building ICEs for more than fifty years. The first time I drove the Tesla, engaged "Ludicrous" and all one's previous street car experiences become so last century. I knew how the blacksmith felt. Standing over a roaring forge on the side of a dirt road, pounding on a red hot horseshoe, he sees his first car go by. "Well, that changes things."
"Tesla's Model S P100D is the fastest accelerating production car in the world, thanks to a Spaceballs-inspired software update. In a recent Motor Trend test, the Model S P100D hit 0-60 mph in 2.275507139 seconds. Launching a Model S P100D (weighing 5,062 with gear and driver) in full-on Ludicrous mode snaps your body in a manner that is utterly impossible to replicate in any other street-legal production car on normal tires and dry asphalt."
What makes it so mind-bending is not just the rate of acceleration, as the fastest street cars I've been in have gone almost that quick. However, the Tesla does it in utter silence and comfort. The fast street rods revved high, spun the tires, made smoke, rattled, shook, and one was always hoping it would stay together and stay straight. And the Tesla comes with four-wheel drive and a warranty; a year-round luxury sedan.

Your opinions and results may vary, but you owe yourself a test drive. The Tesla showroom will be pleased to schedule one, as that's all they do is show, explain and test drive. They can't try to sell you one.
I would love to drive one. That has got to be a surreal experience to feel that acceleration without all the noise. But I am still looking at these cars as novelties and really have no desire to own one. If Tesla doesn't make it, I don't see anyway you would have a viable car in the future. Are you going to be able to find the "all-important" battery in a boneyard 20 yrs from now? These cars will have no restoration market.
quickd100
Pro
Pro
Posts: 398
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 7:34 am
Location: Nielsville, Mn.

Re: 1960's engine wars

Post by quickd100 »

I still prefer my old 'Buggy Whip' over the electric wonders.
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v514/quickd100/9ff3c690.jpg[/img]
PackardV8
Guru
Guru
Posts: 7629
Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2006 2:03 pm
Location: Spokane, WA

Re: 1960's engine wars

Post by PackardV8 »

quickd100 wrote: Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:39 am I still prefer my old 'Buggy Whip' over the electric wonders.
Every day, I build obsolete ICEs. Every day, given the choice for real-world-urban-stop-and-go errand running, the EV is the choice and a hot rod is an annoyance. OTOH, on a warm Sunday morning, with open roads, the obsolete iron is always the choice.

And back to the original question, "Say you have to use stock block and head castings and limit displacement to 430 cid. . . what their true potentials would be today." today's answer would be "none of the above." would most agree a 430" LS or current hemi would spank them all and for a fraction of the cost? One of the most competitive FAST '68 hemis reportedly has more than $100,000 in the engine (Of course, he's running way more than 430").
Jack Vines
Studebaker-Packard V8 Limited
Obsolete Engineering
quickd100
Pro
Pro
Posts: 398
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 7:34 am
Location: Nielsville, Mn.

Re: 1960's engine wars

Post by quickd100 »

I think Dave D's FAST motor is 484 inches. I seriously doubt there is $100,000 in the motor although he's probably got alot of R&D into it.
A few years ago he tore it down in the pits and let everyone watch so they could see with their own eyes there was nothing funny going on. After he put it back together, (with everyone watching) he went out and won the event.
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v514/quickd100/9ff3c690.jpg[/img]
DrillDawg
Expert
Expert
Posts: 980
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:03 am
Location:

Re: 1960's engine wars

Post by DrillDawg »

Right out of a old magazine, 70 428 cj mustang and 70 429 cj torino 4 speeds factory fresh. 14.11 @100 for the mustang and 13.82 @ 103 for the torino. But the 429/460 came out in 68 and should have the most potential as I read a torino cj cleaned in the fast series years ago.
BORN RIGHT THE FIRST TIME
Truckedup
Guru
Guru
Posts: 2728
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:41 pm
Location: Finger Lakes

Re: 1960's engine wars

Post by Truckedup »

hoffman900 wrote: Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:53 am
Don’t get me started on Harley riders...
LOL...But there are a few Harleys out there with serious power.. But most of them are just obnoxious..
Motorcycle land speed racing... wearing animal hides and clinging to vibrating oily machines propelled by fire
rfoll
Guru
Guru
Posts: 3025
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 12:44 pm
Location: St. Helens, OR

Re: 1960's engine wars

Post by rfoll »

I sit next to those Harley guys and just marvel at how much the engine shakes at idle. Having a mechanical career has made me suspicious of anything that vibrates, it's usually an indication there is something wrong. I own a Kawasaki KLR and a Honda 1200 Gold Wing, and both engines are as smooth as silk all the way to 9000 rpm. I guess I'm not cool enough to be a Harley rider.
So much to do, so little time...
hoffman900
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 3460
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:42 pm
Location:

Re: 1960's engine wars

Post by hoffman900 »

rfoll wrote: Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:15 pm I sit next to those Harley guys and just marvel at how much the engine shakes at idle. Having a mechanical career has made me suspicious of anything that vibrates, it's usually an indication there is something wrong. I own a Kawasaki KLR and a Honda 1200 Gold Wing, and both engines are as smooth as silk all the way to 9000 rpm. I guess I'm not cool enough to be a Harley rider.
It's crazy how smooth the KLR is - that's a lot displacement for a single (650) and be that smooth. Even the 450cc motocross bike engines. I have a un-counterbalanced 500cc based Yamaha that's my pet project. It's like riding a paint shaker :shock: .
-Bob
SupStk
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1913
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 6:25 pm
Location: Box Elder, SD

Re: 1960's engine wars

Post by SupStk »

DrillDawg wrote: Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:23 pm Right out of a old magazine, 70 428 cj mustang and 70 429 cj torino 4 speeds factory fresh. 14.11 @100 for the mustang and 13.82 @ 103 for the torino. But the 429/460 came out in 68 and should have the most potential as I read a torino cj cleaned in the fast series years ago.
I had a 70 Torino GT which came withthe base 360 HP 429. Doubt it would run a 14 sec quarter in factory trim. Mine had 2 gears of uncontrollable spin on those F-70-14s.
Monty Frerichs
B&M Machine
DrillDawg
Expert
Expert
Posts: 980
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:03 am
Location:

Re: 1960's engine wars

Post by DrillDawg »

My mistake it was a 71 mustang, for some reason I remembered it was a torino.

https://www.hemmings.com/blog/2010/10/0 ... d-barrier/
BORN RIGHT THE FIRST TIME
Truckedup
Guru
Guru
Posts: 2728
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:41 pm
Location: Finger Lakes

Re: 1960's engine wars

Post by Truckedup »

rfoll wrote: Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:15 pm I sit next to those Harley guys and just marvel at how much the engine shakes at idle. Having a mechanical career has made me suspicious of anything that vibrates, it's usually an indication there is something wrong. I own a Kawasaki KLR and a Honda 1200 Gold Wing, and both engines are as smooth as silk all the way to 9000 rpm. I guess I'm not cool enough to be a Harley rider.
Harleys have had motors isolated on rubber mounts for quite a few years..Once the engine comes off idle they are very smooth..Many riders, including me, don't care for a smooth as silk or bikes with more than two cylinders...It's just personal choice..
I had a 69 Dodge Super B I bought new...Nothing special, 383 4spd 3.23 posi...It ran mid 14's just like all the other entry level muscle cars at Englishtown or Island in NJ...Fastest car I ever saw at the track that was in the "pure stock" class was a 70 454 4 speed car..It ran mid low 13's..
Street racing in NJ then was mostly a Chevy show, big block Novas and Chevelles. There were a few Mopars and the occasional Pontiac...I remember one fast Ford...
Motorcycle land speed racing... wearing animal hides and clinging to vibrating oily machines propelled by fire
DrillDawg
Expert
Expert
Posts: 980
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:03 am
Location:

Re: 1960's engine wars

Post by DrillDawg »

Built a 650 twin "twingle" back in the early 70's, welded the rocker arms together on a 650 tri. twin, when I could get it started, which wasn't often, the pushrods would not last long, talk about a paint shaker.
BORN RIGHT THE FIRST TIME
Truckedup
Guru
Guru
Posts: 2728
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:41 pm
Location: Finger Lakes

Re: 1960's engine wars

Post by Truckedup »

DrillDawg wrote: Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:42 pm Built a 650 twin "twingle" back in the early 70's, welded the rocker arms together on a 650 tri. twin, when I could get it started, which wasn't often, the pushrods would not last long, talk about a paint shaker.
How do you weld the rocker arms together, there's a shaft support between them...
Motorcycle land speed racing... wearing animal hides and clinging to vibrating oily machines propelled by fire
DrillDawg
Expert
Expert
Posts: 980
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:03 am
Location:

Re: 1960's engine wars

Post by DrillDawg »

As you know they meet in the middle, one pushrod front and back.
BORN RIGHT THE FIRST TIME
Post Reply