1960's engine wars

[dorset]

Now if I was going to build a 650 tri. 1mile bike....I would use a late 60's main frame and a 65 rear section, the front end and swing arm assembly from mid 70's RD 250\350, 750 cases with blueprinted 5 speed, early 60's crank with small flywheel, 750 rods, 750 barrels sleeved to 650 bore, New bronze lifter blocks, std. Lifters, steel tube pushrods, modern custom pistons and ring package, early 750 head with the spread intakes, lighten rocker arms with offset buttons for more lift, polished and coated inter crankcases, polished and coated flywheel and crank, 30mm square body amals, belt drive and dry clutch, 750 lighten and coated cam gears, sludge trap removed with external oil filter, morgo oil pump, wheels laced with narrow 18" aluminum rims with skinny ribbed tires aired up to 45 psi, none o-ring 520 chain, magnetic pickup with aftermarket hei module, jap 4 cyl coil, single plug head, cam and head setup for 8500 rpm, bike geared to match, 1-3\4" two into one exhaust system with straight collector, rear drum and front disc setup not to rub while under power, ceramic non sealed wheel bearings with synthetic light grease, 16 volt battery, Champion style fiberglass gas tank, hire the smallest lightest flattracker I could find and do some dyno and track testing at whatever elevation the meet was going to be at. Then buy the rule book, lol.

that would be legal in M/PG 650/4 at either ECTA or LTA.

8500 rpm might be problematic with a stock crank, though.

[PackardV8]

we surely replaced a lot of CJ engines under warranty,

A sidebar to the 1960s engine wars; reading about gimmicked cars turning quick times when track tested in the magazines generated showroom traffic, so GM and Ford paid race shops to prepare and deliver ringers to the magazines. The classic story is all those introductory Pontiac GTOs furnished for road testing had built 421"s in them. The production 389" cars were a full second slower in the quarter. Bill Stroppe built Fairlanes, Comets and Mustangs for magazine road tests, often with headers and soft drag tires.

But when young guys read the mags and came in to place orders, many GM and Ford dealers wouldn't take orders for the highest performance engines. They'd learned through bitter experience the cars would be raced and the valve spring technology just wasn't there yet, so most of them run hard blew early and often.

When the Chevy II/Chevelles were theoretically available with the L79 327" 350hp, local GM dealers would take an order but never actually place it. The hope was the buyer would get tired of waiting for a car which was never coming and take a lower-horsepower model.

But the L79s were durable compared to the 396" 425hp BBC in the mid-'65 Corvette. Those solid lifter engines dropped valves within weeks of delivery. I remember the first two roadsters; a red and a BRG, both with side pipes, delivered by Tom Gloor Chevrolet in Bessemer, AL. Those cars would race for 2-3 weeks and then sit in the Service Department waiting for new long blocks. Finally, after several blow-ups, the Service Manager just slow played the replacements until the owners got tired of not having their cars and traded them on something else.

The Ford FE failures have already been mentioned. One which happened regularly was owners thinking racing in 100-degree weather required 50wt oil. Revving a cold FE with thick oil would twist off the oil pump drive shaft. The lucky ones failed in the pits. Those not so lucky failed at the top of first gear, but didn't see the warning light until past the end of the quarter.

Maybe, because the hemi cars were more expensive and maybe Mopar had more confidence in them, but if you had money, they'd usually deliver a hemi or a Max Wedge car. I do remember they didn't want to deliver them with the Borg-Warner 3-speed or later, the 4-speed. Only after the New Process 4-speeds came along would they live behind a race Mopar. Same with the 13:1 compression Max Wedge. Most racers had to build those themselves; they didn't last.

[DrillDawg]

Now if I was going to build a 650 tri. 1mile bike....I would use a late 60's main frame and a 65 rear section, the front end and swing arm assembly from mid 70's RD 250\350, 750 cases with blueprinted 5 speed, early 60's crank with small flywheel, 750 rods, 750 barrels sleeved to 650 bore, New bronze lifter blocks, std. Lifters, steel tube pushrods, modern custom pistons and ring package, early 750 head with the spread intakes, lighten rocker arms with offset buttons for more lift, polished and coated inter crankcases, polished and coated flywheel and crank, 30mm square body amals, belt drive and dry clutch, 750 lighten and coated cam gears, sludge trap removed with external oil filter, morgo oil pump, wheels laced with narrow 18" aluminum rims with skinny ribbed tires aired up to 45 psi, none o-ring 520 chain, magnetic pickup with aftermarket hei module, jap 4 cyl coil, single plug head, cam and head setup for 8500 rpm, bike geared to match, 1-3\4" two into one exhaust system with straight collector, rear drum and front disc setup not to rub while under power, ceramic non sealed wheel bearings with synthetic light grease, 16 volt battery, Champion style fiberglass gas tank, hire the smallest lightest flattracker I could find and do some dyno and track testing at whatever elevation the meet was going to be at. Then buy the rule book, lol.

that would be legal in M/PG 650/4 at either ECTA or LTA.

8500 rpm might be problematic with a stock crank, though.

A bar of 4340 and small dia. flywheel is all I'll say about it.....now back to Car Wars, lol.

[Steve.k]

we surely replaced a lot of CJ engines under warranty,

A sidebar to the 1960s engine wars; reading about gimmicked cars turning quick times when track tested in the magazines generated showroom traffic, so GM and Ford paid race shops to prepare and deliver ringers to the magazines. The classic story is all those introductory Pontiac GTOs furnished for road testing had built 421"s in them. The production 389" cars were a full second slower in the quarter. Bill Stroppe built Fairlanes, Comets and Mustangs for magazine road tests, often with headers and soft drag tires.

But when young guys read the mags and came in to place orders, many GM and Ford dealers wouldn't take orders for the highest performance engines. They'd learned through bitter experience the cars would be raced and the valve spring technology just wasn't there yet, so most of them run hard blew early and often.

When the Chevy II/Chevelles were theoretically available with the L79 327" 350hp, local GM dealers would take an order but never actually place it. The hope was the buyer would get tired of waiting for a car which was never coming and take a lower-horsepower model.

But the L79s were durable compared to the 396" 425hp BBC in the mid-'65 Corvette. Those solid lifter engines dropped valves within weeks of delivery. I remember the first two roadsters; a red and a BRG, both with side pipes, delivered by Tom Gloor Chevrolet in Bessemer, AL. Those cars would race for 2-3 weeks and then sit in the Service Department waiting for new long blocks. Finally, after several blow-ups, the Service Manager just slow played the replacements until the owners got tired of not having their cars and traded them on something else.

The Ford FE failures have already been mentioned. One which happened regularly was owners thinking racing in 100-degree weather required 50wt oil. Revving a cold FE with thick oil would twist off the oil pump drive shaft. The lucky ones failed in the pits. Those not so lucky failed at the top of first gear, but didn't see the warning light until past the end of the quarter.

Maybe, because the hemi cars were more expensive and maybe Mopar had more confidence in them, but if you had money, they'd usually deliver a hemi or a Max Wedge car. I do remember they didn't want to deliver them with the Borg-Warner 3-speed or later, the 4-speed. Only after the New Process 4-speeds came along would they live behind a race Mopar. Same with the 13:1 compression Max Wedge. Most racers had to build those themselves; they didn't last.

Those were very cool times. We had 428 cj cougars around here that were very deceiving. Way faster than most would've thought as we all figured more of luxury sedan. Some 340 swingers with w2 over the counter heads were very quick. One oval port chevy a buddy transplanted in trans am was high 12 second car at time. Plenty fast for street car in those days. You see the new factory stuff today and I think the mfgs are playing same game. Even the new Demon doesnt crack what dodge claims. Not at our track anyway. The guy said to me launching off brake was getting 7.1 in 1/8 and if he foot braked it 6.9. Tires wouldn't hold off brake. Even new stangs under the adverised speeds.

[amc fan]

When it came to street racing in the late 60s it was hard to beat the 66 Chevy 2 Nova with the 350 horse 327. With headers slapper bars and a set of cheater slicks it could hold its own against any of the 440 six packs, Hemi, and 427 Corvettes

[quickd100]

When the 440 6pk came out they had already set up a magazine test car for the press. I believe it was Ronny Sox that ran it and got it into the high 12s. The whole car was breathed in by the factory engineers. Later a kid bought the car and got ahold of someone that had been involved in setting up the car. He was told not to change anything or it would slow the car down. Well the kid changed the cam to a bigger unit and the car slowed down.
The average 440 6pk car ran in the low 14's to middle to high 13's.

[grandsport51]

As discussed I’m a ford guy but mostly an American Car Guy! I thinkJim Wangers invented the whole deal
With all the road test Ponchos being breathed or engines replaced by Royal Pontiac .
But one of my faves was this ‘66 Car and Driver
6 supercar shoot out
http://wildaboutcarsonline.com/cgi-bin/ ... splayed=50
The best ringer test I ever read!
Dave B

[Truckedup]

As discussed I’m a ford guy but mostly an American Car Guy! I thinkJim Wangers invented the whole deal
With all the road test Ponchos being breathed or engines replaced by Royal Pontiac .
But one of my faves was this ‘66 Car and Driver
6 supercar shoot out
http://wildaboutcarsonline.com/cgi-bin/ ... splayed=50
The best ringer test I ever read!
Dave B

Yeah ,only true two factory stock vehicles, the Chevy and Buick...The road testers said the 396 had turbine like smoothness...

[grandsport51]

Yep,
But honestly like I said earlier The Solid Lifter Chevys were no better I dont think there are any solid lifter vettes
that had any original blocks when I was restoring some of these 2nd Gen vettes a fellow near Tonawanda would rent
you a Gang stamper so you could try and recreate an Original Motor LOL!!
suspect he was a GM engine plant worker !!
Dave B

[peejay]

But when young guys read the mags and came in to place orders, many GM and Ford dealers wouldn't take orders for the highest performance engines. They'd learned through bitter experience the cars would be raced and the valve spring technology just wasn't there yet, so most of them run hard blew early and often.

When the Chevy II/Chevelles were theoretically available with the L79 327" 350hp, local GM dealers would take an order but never actually place it. The hope was the buyer would get tired of waiting for a car which was never coming and take a lower-horsepower model.

But the L79s were durable compared to the 396" 425hp BBC in the mid-'65 Corvette. Those solid lifter engines dropped valves within weeks of delivery. I remember the first two roadsters; a red and a BRG, both with side pipes, delivered by Tom Gloor Chevrolet in Bessemer, AL. Those cars would race for 2-3 weeks and then sit in the Service Department waiting for new long blocks. Finally, after several blow-ups, the Service Manager just slow played the replacements until the owners got tired of not having their cars and traded them on something else.

The Ford FE failures have already been mentioned. One which happened regularly was owners thinking racing in 100-degree weather required 50wt oil. Revving a cold FE with thick oil would twist off the oil pump drive shaft. The lucky ones failed in the pits. Those not so lucky failed at the top of first gear, but didn't see the warning light until past the end of the quarter.

Maybe, because the hemi cars were more expensive and maybe Mopar had more confidence in them, but if you had money, they'd usually deliver a hemi or a Max Wedge car. I do remember they didn't want to deliver them with the Borg-Warner 3-speed or later, the 4-speed. Only after the New Process 4-speeds came along would they live behind a race Mopar. Same with the 13:1 compression Max Wedge. Most racers had to build those themselves; they didn't last.

Ah the "Good Old Days"!

Nowadays, people bitch that a 2.3l engine that is turbocharged to an inch of its life to make 350hp from the factory, can't have its power cranked up to 500+hp without cracking the block...

[DrillDawg]

Popular Hot Rod 1970 390hp super bee 4 speed six pack hop-up test. Stock rwhp 244 @ 4250, 4.10 gears, f60-15 tires, 23lbs of air, 13.95 @ 100.78. Dyno tune 272 @ 4250, 13.74 @ 105.63, headers and dyno tune 318 @ 4750, open headers, hood scoops open, 14 psi in the tires, 12.92@ 108, that's as close to the truth as it comes.

[Steve.k]

In our area there were lots of bb superbees,cudas and chevy chevelles. The odd camaro. Fords were the cj cougars and some newer 71scj cars. One guy in town Bought a 71 boss 351 then swapped the cam to crane f-246 and strip dominator intake. That thing with 4.11 gear was nasty and laid down serious smack around here. Basically what turned me around to Cleveland. Most of the big block guys never changed much other than headers and odds and ends. Guess they figured they had enough beans with big motors.A few other guys had ls7 over the counter big blocks in camaros. Those were nasty and my brother inlaw ran a L88 wedged in 68 firebird. My first car was 350 nova then switched over to ford cleveland with a 73 cougar xr7 which I eventually widdled the street cleveland to a 12.9@107. We thought that was real fast then. Nothing compared to now with 7-8 second streetcars.

[Truckedup]

In our area there were lots of bb superbees,cudas and chevy chevelles. The odd camaro. Fords were the cj cougars and some newer 71scj cars. One guy in town Bought a 71 boss 351 then swapped the cam to crane f-246 and strip dominator intake. That thing with 4.11 gear was nasty and laid down serious smack around here. Basically what turned me around to Cleveland. Most of the big block guys never changed much other than headers and odds and ends. Guess they figured they had enough beans with big motors.A few other guys had ls7 over the counter big blocks in camaros. Those were nasty and my brother inlaw ran a L88 wedged in 68 firebird. My first car was 350 nova then switched over to ford cleveland with a 73 cougar xr7 which I eventually widdled the street cleveland to a 12.9@107. We thought that was real fast then. Nothing compared to now with 7-8 second streetcars.

Are 7-8 second streetcars more than just drag cars with interiors and license plates?

[Cougar5.0]

I remember a Hot Rod article from the late 70's where they modified a '69 GTO 400CI (cam/intake/carb/headers) and it ran a 12.4 sec 1/4 mile.

Just thought it deserved a mention. With ladder bars and radials, my similarly modified goat was a terror, lifting front wheels on the street and cornered pretty decent as well.

[SupStk]

As discussed I’m a ford guy but mostly an American Car Guy! I thinkJim Wangers invented the whole deal
With all the road test Ponchos being breathed or engines replaced by Royal Pontiac .
But one of my faves was this ‘66 Car and Driver
6 supercar shoot out
http://wildaboutcarsonline.com/cgi-bin/ ... splayed=50
The best ringer test I ever read!
Dave B

Yeah ,only true two factory stock vehicles, the Chevy and Buick...The road testers said the 396 had turbine like smoothness...

Just kinda curious what the results were on their shootout?