Can Am racing

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

Moderator: Team

Turbo231
Member
Member
Posts: 118
Joined: Wed May 23, 2018 4:42 pm
Location: Nashville, TN

Can Am racing

Post by Turbo231 »

Does anyone on this site have experience with the 1960-70's Can Am engines or the current vintage Can Am cars? I have always read that the later Big Block Chevy engines were the pinnacle of N/A engine development. Of course horsepower numbers are speculative but I have seen numbers near 900 hp for some of these N/A cars with near 500 cid. Now my question: What is the pinnacle now for a comparable size N/A engine? And I am not talking about drag race engines, but something that might run in a modern-day Cam Am.
hoffman900
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 3445
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:42 pm
Location:

Re: Can Am racing

Post by hoffman900 »

Nothing Chevy is the pinnacle of anything - Porsche proved that point, but are you trying to decide between engines to put into a chassis? What era Can-Am (1960s or when they were basically fendered F5000 cars)?

In vintage, the driver can make up for A LOT. I’ve seen current pros hand it to the big block cars driven by hobbiest / rich amateurs.

I really doubt they were around 900bhp back in the day. Today? Absolutely. Most of the top V8 stuff, that I know of, in vintage racing today is up ~200hp from yesteryear’s top stuff (25-30% for everything from 4cyl MGs to BBC’s).

Bill-C here has a lot of experience with top vintage road racing V8s.
-Bob
Turbo231
Member
Member
Posts: 118
Joined: Wed May 23, 2018 4:42 pm
Location: Nashville, TN

Re: Can Am racing

Post by Turbo231 »

hoffman900 wrote: Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:18 pm Nothing Chevy is the pinnacle of anything - Porsche proved that point, but are you trying to decide between engines to put into a chassis? What era Can-Am (1960s or when they were basically fendered F5000 cars)?

In vintage, the driver can make up for A LOT. I’ve seen current pros hand it to the big block cars driven by hobbiest / rich amateurs.

Bill-C here has a lot of experience with top vintage road racing V8s.
But Porsche went turbo. I am interested in NA and what could be done now with a 500 cid engine being built to the original rules of Can Am. This is a theoretical inquiry. Only restriction would be we can not use modern computer controlled A/F and spark.
hoffman900
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 3445
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:42 pm
Location:

Re: Can Am racing

Post by hoffman900 »

Turbo231 wrote: Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:28 pm
hoffman900 wrote: Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:18 pm Nothing Chevy is the pinnacle of anything - Porsche proved that point, but are you trying to decide between engines to put into a chassis? What era Can-Am (1960s or when they were basically fendered F5000 cars)?

In vintage, the driver can make up for A LOT. I’ve seen current pros hand it to the big block cars driven by hobbiest / rich amateurs.

Bill-C here has a lot of experience with top vintage road racing V8s.
But Porsche went turbo. I am interested in NA and what could be done now with a 500 cid engine being built to the original rules of Can Am. This is a theoretical inquiry. Only restriction would be we can not use modern computer controlled A/F and spark.
Vintage has to be stock appearing on the outside but internals are free. So you typically see aftermarket iron blocks and heads (or aluminum depending) with a ton of work, large journal roller camshafts with valve lifts .700”+, headers built by guys like Elston or Hytech, etc.

A true period build would be like bringing oragami to a gun fight.
-Bob
Turbo231
Member
Member
Posts: 118
Joined: Wed May 23, 2018 4:42 pm
Location: Nashville, TN

Re: Can Am racing

Post by Turbo231 »

hoffman900 wrote: Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:31 pm
Turbo231 wrote: Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:28 pm
hoffman900 wrote: Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:18 pm Nothing Chevy is the pinnacle of anything - Porsche proved that point, but are you trying to decide between engines to put into a chassis? What era Can-Am (1960s or when they were basically fendered F5000 cars)?

In vintage, the driver can make up for A LOT. I’ve seen current pros hand it to the big block cars driven by hobbiest / rich amateurs.

Bill-C here has a lot of experience with top vintage road racing V8s.
But Porsche went turbo. I am interested in NA and what could be done now with a 500 cid engine being built to the original rules of Can Am. This is a theoretical inquiry. Only restriction would be we can not use modern computer controlled A/F and spark.
Vintage has to be stock appearing on the outside but internals are free. So you typically see aftermarket iron blocks and heads (or aluminum depending) with a ton of work, large journal roller camshafts with valve lifts .700”+, headers built by guys like Elston or Hytech, etc.

A true period build would be like bringing oragami to a gun fight.
Do you know what we might expect hp and torque to be from a stock appearing vintage class engine? And with a 500 cid limit.
hoffman900
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 3445
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:42 pm
Location:

Re: Can Am racing

Post by hoffman900 »

Turbo231 wrote: Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:35 pm
hoffman900 wrote: Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:31 pm
Turbo231 wrote: Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:28 pm

But Porsche went turbo. I am interested in NA and what could be done now with a 500 cid engine being built to the original rules of Can Am. This is a theoretical inquiry. Only restriction would be we can not use modern computer controlled A/F and spark.
Vintage has to be stock appearing on the outside but internals are free. So you typically see aftermarket iron blocks and heads (or aluminum depending) with a ton of work, large journal roller camshafts with valve lifts .700”+, headers built by guys like Elston or Hytech, etc.

A true period build would be like bringing oragami to a gun fight.
Do you know what we might expect hp and torque to be from a stock appearing vintage class engine? And with a 500 cid limit.
Based on trap speeds and paddock rumors, 800bhp-ish Not sure on torque. Bill would have a more accurate answer.

Here is a 565ci Can Am Chevy: https://youtu.be/IUgj3EMhXOQ

840bhp and 780lb-ft. I’m sure there are a couple better than that.
-Bob
pamotorman
Guru
Guru
Posts: 2802
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2014 11:55 pm
Location:

Re: Can Am racing

Post by pamotorman »

how to build a can am engine from GM
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Turbo231
Member
Member
Posts: 118
Joined: Wed May 23, 2018 4:42 pm
Location: Nashville, TN

Re: Can Am racing

Post by Turbo231 »

hoffman900 wrote: Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:37 pm
Turbo231 wrote: Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:35 pm
hoffman900 wrote: Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:31 pm

Vintage has to be stock appearing on the outside but internals are free. So you typically see aftermarket iron blocks and heads (or aluminum depending) with a ton of work, large journal roller camshafts with valve lifts .700”+, headers built by guys like Elston or Hytech, etc.

A true period build would be like bringing oragami to a gun fight.
Do you know what we might expect hp and torque to be from a stock appearing vintage class engine? And with a 500 cid limit.
Based on trap speeds and paddock rumors, 800bhp-ish Not sure on torque. Bill would have a more accurate answer.

Here is a 565ci Can Am Chevy: https://youtu.be/IUgj3EMhXOQ

840bhp and 780lb-ft. I’m sure there are a couple better than that.
So if there is any truth to old speculation from that time period, 800 to 900 hp might have been and still is the pinnacle for NA.
hoffman900
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 3445
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:42 pm
Location:

Re: Can Am racing

Post by hoffman900 »

Turbo231 wrote: Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:57 pm
hoffman900 wrote: Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:37 pm
Turbo231 wrote: Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:35 pm

Do you know what we might expect hp and torque to be from a stock appearing vintage class engine? And with a 500 cid limit.
Based on trap speeds and paddock rumors, 800bhp-ish Not sure on torque. Bill would have a more accurate answer.

Here is a 565ci Can Am Chevy: https://youtu.be/IUgj3EMhXOQ

840bhp and 780lb-ft. I’m sure there are a couple better than that.
So if there is any truth to old speculation from that time period, 800 to 900 hp might have been and still is the pinnacle for NA.
I’m sorry to say, but I really doubt it. I think their is some number inflation via nostalgia. My guess is around 650bhp is more accurate.
-Bob
Turbo231
Member
Member
Posts: 118
Joined: Wed May 23, 2018 4:42 pm
Location: Nashville, TN

Re: Can Am racing

Post by Turbo231 »

hoffman900 wrote: Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:58 pm
Turbo231 wrote: Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:57 pm
hoffman900 wrote: Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:37 pm

Based on trap speeds and paddock rumors, 800bhp-ish Not sure on torque. Bill would have a more accurate answer.

Here is a 565ci Can Am Chevy: https://youtu.be/IUgj3EMhXOQ

840bhp and 780lb-ft. I’m sure there are a couple better than that.
So if there is any truth to old speculation from that time period, 800 to 900 hp might have been and still is the pinnacle for NA.
I’m sorry to say, but I really doubt it. I think their is some number inflation via nostalgia. My guess is around 650bhp is more accurate.
I agree. Exaggerated power numbers have always been a part of motorsports. Thanks for your comments.
mekilljoydammit
Member
Member
Posts: 184
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2015 6:40 pm
Location:

Re: Can Am racing

Post by mekilljoydammit »

hoffman900 wrote: Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:58 pm I’m sorry to say, but I really doubt it. I think their is some number inflation via nostalgia. My guess is around 650bhp is more accurate.
That jibes with what I've heard - maybe, maybe in the 700s for the last McLarens but not reliably. From what I can tell, the 917s probably only ever raced in the 900hp range too, despite claims of what they did on the dynos - no intercooling and pretty primitive turbos, remember. Modern appearing vintage ones are probably in the 900hp range of course - probably a lot of that due to cam and valvetrain advancements.

I saw a continuation or clone or something at a vintage race where they were advertising 1100hp with a fully "modern" big block but who knows.

I wouldn't call any of them the pinnacle of NA engine development, but they sure did work.

*edit* Oh yeah, I feel obliged to make some joke about how they might have eked out a little more power with an iron block BBC instead of aluminum ones. :mrgreen:
tt 383
Expert
Expert
Posts: 521
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 8:46 pm
Location: Stuart, Florida

Re: Can Am racing

Post by tt 383 »

What exactly is allowed? Does it have to be factory stuff?
pamotorman
Guru
Guru
Posts: 2802
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2014 11:55 pm
Location:

Re: Can Am racing

Post by pamotorman »

tt 383 wrote: Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:25 pm What exactly is allowed? Does it have to be factory stuff?
GM furnished most all the parts except the FI.
Last edited by pamotorman on Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
DanE1
New Member
New Member
Posts: 45
Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:22 am
Location:

Re: Can Am racing

Post by DanE1 »

At one time in the late 60's, there were 2 Can Am cars in my garage. One Lola, and one McLaren. Both were powered by aluminum "430" inch BBC's putting out around 650 HP. We took the Lola out to the freeway late one evening. Damn thing sure was fast for that era.
tt 383
Expert
Expert
Posts: 521
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 8:46 pm
Location: Stuart, Florida

Re: Can Am racing

Post by tt 383 »

OK, so does it all gave to be nostalgia parts now or homologated stuff? . Surely the parts bin is better now than before?
Post Reply