ICL vs. .050” Cam Degreeing Methods

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statsystems
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Re: ICL vs. .050” Cam Degreeing Methods

Post by statsystems » Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:32 am

Warp Speed wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:19 am
statsystems wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:22 pm
Warp Speed wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:58 pm


Why not use a stop?

I can do it faster without a stop. And just as accurate. So I don't bother with it.
Probably not, but then, just as in measuring, it comes down to the size of the wheel and the resolution of the gauge.
So please explain your gauge method?

The same way I find the center of lift on a cam lobe. I get it close with just the degree wheel. Then measure and read .050 before and after TDC and split it. Then verify.

I've been checked by several people. It's very easy. Like I said, never had a stop, never bothered to make one.

Anyway, once I know how many degrees I'm off (usually 1 or 2) I split the difference and rotate the degree wheel and then verify once more. Done. I can do it with an 8 inch degree wheel or a 16 (I own both) and I've done it with a 22 but I didn't own that one.

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Re: ICL vs. .050” Cam Degreeing Methods

Post by joe 90 » Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:54 am

I don't even use a degree wheel, no need to.
A pointer on the ring gear, it's got 117 teeth mark one as TDC and bend up a bit of wire as a pointer.Count half way round and mark it as BDC. Counting either way, it's near enough 3 deg per tooth. Otherwise use a calculator.Then white paint and marker pen on the ring gear for each open, close event.

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Re: ICL vs. .050” Cam Degreeing Methods

Post by Warp Speed » Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:52 am

joe 90 wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:54 am
I don't even use a degree wheel, no need to.
A pointer on the ring gear, it's got 117 teeth mark one as TDC and bend up a bit of wire as a pointer.Count half way round and mark it as BDC. Counting either way, it's near enough 3 deg per tooth. Otherwise use a calculator.Then white paint and marker pen on the ring gear for each open, close event.
Now that is precise! HAHAHAHA

And you complain about the lack of precision of a wide band sensor!!!

Hilarious! :lol:

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Re: ICL vs. .050” Cam Degreeing Methods

Post by Warp Speed » Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:55 am

statsystems wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:32 am
Warp Speed wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:19 am
statsystems wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:22 pm



I can do it faster without a stop. And just as accurate. So I don't bother with it.
Probably not, but then, just as in measuring, it comes down to the size of the wheel and the resolution of the gauge.
So please explain your gauge method?

The same way I find the center of lift on a cam lobe. I get it close with just the degree wheel. Then measure and read .050 before and after TDC and split it. Then verify.

I've been checked by several people. It's very easy. Like I said, never had a stop, never bothered to make one.

Anyway, once I know how many degrees I'm off (usually 1 or 2) I split the difference and rotate the degree wheel and then verify once more. Done. I can do it with an 8 inch degree wheel or a 16 (I own both) and I've done it with a 22 but I didn't own that one.
That was a given, but how are you using and positioning the indicator?

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Re: ICL vs. .050” Cam Degreeing Methods

Post by gmrocket » Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:38 am

Warp Speed wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:55 am
statsystems wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:32 am
Warp Speed wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:19 am


Probably not, but then, just as in measuring, it comes down to the size of the wheel and the resolution of the gauge.
So please explain your gauge method?

The same way I find the center of lift on a cam lobe. I get it close with just the degree wheel. Then measure and read .050 before and after TDC and split it. Then verify.

I've been checked by several people. It's very easy. Like I said, never had a stop, never bothered to make one.

Anyway, once I know how many degrees I'm off (usually 1 or 2) I split the difference and rotate the degree wheel and then verify once more. Done. I can do it with an 8 inch degree wheel or a 16 (I own both) and I've done it with a 22 but I didn't own that one.
That was a given, but how are you using and positioning the indicator?
I'm wondering the same thing. A stop can be removed and reinstalled and it's in the exact same position.

Once you remove the indicator, can it be installed again while doing the same cam to verify tdc is still tdc? Not without some kind of jig. It's got to be parallel, horizontal, vertical and at the exact same spot on piston.. like to see how that's done

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Re: ICL vs. .050” Cam Degreeing Methods

Post by gmrocket » Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:52 am

joe 90 wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:54 am
I don't even use a degree wheel, no need to.
A pointer on the ring gear, it's got 117 teeth mark one as TDC and bend up a bit of wire as a pointer.Count half way round and mark it as BDC. Counting either way, it's near enough 3 deg per tooth. Otherwise use a calculator.Then white paint and marker pen on the ring gear for each open, close event.
I'll bet in the olden days you didn't even have to use a white marker or bit of wire, as your memory and eyesight was waaaaaay better

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Re: ICL vs. .050” Cam Degreeing Methods

Post by elwood » Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:57 pm

hung up on the stop, the mag base dial indicator can be installed removed faster than i can whip this out, and .050" is always .050"

or you can use .100" or any value you like the center of 2 points on the wheel is always the center of 2 points

shoot dropped a bolt, now where's the wrench to tighten the bolts for the stop ?

i do like the idea of making a flex plate degree wheel though

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Re: ICL vs. .050” Cam Degreeing Methods

Post by statsystems » Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:01 pm

elwood wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:57 pm
hung up on the stop, the mag base dial indicator can be installed removed faster than i can whip this out, and .050" is always .050"

or you can use .100" or any value you like the center of 2 points on the wheel is always the center of 2 points

shoot dropped a bolt, now where's the wrench to tighten the bolts for the stop ?

i do like the idea of making a flex plate degree wheel though

I use a deck bridge. Center of the piston. It ain't that hard. I've had the super hero types come tell me I wasn't accurate and they whip out their super gigantic degree wheel and positive stop. When it was all said and done, of the many times I was checked I never had more that one degree difference. A couple of those times I was using an 8 inch wheel because it's what I had at that time.

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Re: ICL vs. .050” Cam Degreeing Methods

Post by elwood » Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:00 pm

extra un-necessary tools, the dial is already on the scene

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Re: ICL vs. .050” Cam Degreeing Methods

Post by joe 90 » Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:20 pm

Warp Speed wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:52 am
joe 90 wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:54 am
I don't even use a degree wheel, no need to.
A pointer on the ring gear, it's got 117 teeth mark one as TDC and bend up a bit of wire as a pointer.Count half way round and mark it as BDC. Counting either way, it's near enough 3 deg per tooth. Otherwise use a calculator.Then white paint and marker pen on the ring gear for each open, close event.
Now that is precise! HAHAHAHA

And you complain about the lack of precision of a wide band sensor!!!

Hilarious! :lol:

It's more precise than a degree wheel off centre and made wrong and half a tooth resolution is all you're going to get anyway........each time you go around you'll get a slightly different reading ........unless you've never done the job and the numbers come out perfect every time.
You also need to apply extra tenson to the belt / chain to eliminate any backlash while measuring.


I call it the left handed way because right handed people have a tendency of being unable to think for themselves.

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Re: ICL vs. .050” Cam Degreeing Methods

Post by Warp Speed » Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:57 pm

joe 90 wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:20 pm
Warp Speed wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:52 am
joe 90 wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:54 am
I don't even use a degree wheel, no need to.
A pointer on the ring gear, it's got 117 teeth mark one as TDC and bend up a bit of wire as a pointer.Count half way round and mark it as BDC. Counting either way, it's near enough 3 deg per tooth. Otherwise use a calculator.Then white paint and marker pen on the ring gear for each open, close event.
Now that is precise! HAHAHAHA

And you complain about the lack of precision of a wide band sensor!!!

Hilarious! :lol:

It's more precise than a degree wheel off centre and made wrong and half a tooth resolution is all you're going to get anyway........each time you go around you'll get a slightly different reading ........unless you've never done the job and the numbers come out perfect every time.
You also need to apply extra tenson to the belt / chain to eliminate any backlash while measuring.


I call it the left handed way because right handed people have a tendency of being unable to think for themselves.
You can't be serious about this right?

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Re: ICL vs. .050” Cam Degreeing Methods

Post by joe 90 » Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:55 pm

I take it from your comment either you've never degreed a cam at all or you've never done a complete job.
Degreeing only one cylinder on one stick is only 1/8 of the job (if it's a V8).


What I work with is sets of 4 sticks, 6 lobes per stick , 2 sets of 3 lobes with 2 different profiles.
If cylinder no 1 is OK, are all the others OK........well no because cylinder no 1 is only 2 sticks.
So you've got to repeat with cylinder no 4 (60 degree v6 with finger followers).
Then when you've done no 4, go back and do 2, 3, 5 and 6 and compare the results.
Are they the same?
No.
Why not?
Because you've got valve springs pushing on the cams making them turn slightly either 1 way or the other so you've got to remove all the rockers except for the one you're measuring.
Then there's the belt tensioner and even though it's tight, there's still a bit of backlash.
So that needs tightening mechanically.
Then it's getting close.
As well as measuring IO, IC, EO and EC at various different lifts, it's better to just adjust the lash so there isn't any then go round with the dial gauge and measure lift every 3 crank degrees.
Then you KNOW that the cams are asymmetrical and have flat tops to them.You'll also know the rocker ratio which in it's self isn't a fixed number but it varies throughout the lift.That's once you've measured lobe lift as well as valve lift.


Then when you find the errors how do you fix them?
By offsetting the dowel hole in the cam gear, that's how.

The first time I did this (similar method) was with a set of regrinds (just a normal V6 24V)I rang the cam company afterwards and told them that their cams were crap and the 2 banks had different profiles (it's NOW a documented fact,found by others with other brands too, so it's not just me)

The reply was that they must be OK because cam doctor said so.


OK so what about cam doctor then?

It doesn't work right with finger followers due to the geometry involved.
So the cam company got fired, I'll never use them again.

Who was right....me?
or the cam company?

I can't say who the cam company is, only that they're not far from home.
Last edited by joe 90 on Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: ICL vs. .050” Cam Degreeing Methods

Post by elwood » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:08 pm

there was something about this geometry problem with Ford DOHC Mod motors too

i forget the company though

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Re: ICL vs. .050” Cam Degreeing Methods

Post by joe 90 » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:19 pm

All of them.........because they grind both the intake cams to the same profile and they grind both exhaust cams to the same profile but when you measure....they have different profiles........due to the finger followers running on opposite sides of the lobes.


That's easy too.


Cam doctor = fail.



Now if you didn't bother measuring.......you wouldn't know.

The factory cams will have different profiles for each bank .......giving the same valve lift vs degrees for each bank.

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Re: ICL vs. .050” Cam Degreeing Methods

Post by gruntguru » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:49 pm

joe 90 wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:19 pm
All of them.........because they grind both the intake cams to the same profile and they grind both exhaust cams to the same profile but when you measure....they have different profiles........due to the finger followers running on opposite sides of the lobes. . . .
. . . Now if you didn't bother measuring.......you wouldn't know.
The asymmetry on finger-follower lobes is usually obvious to the naked eye - even at my age! No need to measure on that count at least.

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