ICL vs. .050” Cam Degreeing Methods

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Re: ICL vs. .050” Cam Degreeing Methods

Post by gmrocket »

elwood wrote: Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:57 pm hung up on the stop, the mag base dial indicator can be installed removed faster than i can whip this out, and .050" is always .050"

or you can use .100" or any value you like the center of 2 points on the wheel is always the center of 2 points

shoot dropped a bolt, now where's the wrench to tighten the bolts for the stop ?

i do like the idea of making a flex plate degree wheel though
Ya, the stop is too complicated for you. Stick with the indicator and flywheel
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Re: ICL vs. .050” Cam Degreeing Methods

Post by hoffman900 »

joe 90 wrote: Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:19 pm All of them.........because they grind both the intake cams to the same profile and they grind both exhaust cams to the same profile but when you measure....they have different profiles........due to the finger followers running on opposite sides of the lobes.


That's easy too.


Cam doctor = fail.



Now if you didn't bother measuring.......you wouldn't know.

The factory cams will have different profiles for each bank .......giving the same valve lift vs degrees for each bank.
You need to find a new camshaft grinder then. Porsche pancake racers have this problem too as the cams spin in different directions. A few grinders understand this and grind accordingly.

You do know what Jay does for a living and who he works for, right?
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Re: ICL vs. .050” Cam Degreeing Methods

Post by oldhead »

I aways use .050,.075 and .100 thet way I know its in right...I check both ramps to make sure I have the right cam, I recived two real wrong cams from Crower.... :) :) :) :) Oldhead
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Re: ICL vs. .050” Cam Degreeing Methods

Post by gmrocket »

statsystems wrote: Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:32 am
Warp Speed wrote: Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:19 am
statsystems wrote: Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:22 pm


I can do it faster without a stop. And just as accurate. So I don't bother with it.
Probably not, but then, just as in measuring, it comes down to the size of the wheel and the resolution of the gauge.
So please explain your gauge method?

The same way I find the center of lift on a cam lobe. I get it close with just the degree wheel. Then measure and read .050 before and after TDC and split it. Then verify.

I've been checked by several people. It's very easy. Like I said, never had a stop, never bothered to make one.

Anyway, once I know how many degrees I'm off (usually 1 or 2) I split the difference and rotate the degree wheel and then verify once more. Done. I can do it with an 8 inch degree wheel or a 16 (I own both) and I've done it with a 22 but I didn't own that one.
How do you deal with piston rock when using a dial indicator?

Where on the crown does your dial indicator contact on an offset pin ?

next time you set up your indicator, let us know how much needle movement you get when rocking the piston,, and is it the same on a 1" comp height piston and a 2" one?

When you check .050" before and after, do you rotate all the way around in opposite direction to get your other .050", or do you just continue on past tdc and stop at .050"?
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Re: ICL vs. .050” Cam Degreeing Methods

Post by Stan Weiss »

I do the best I can with what I have to work with. :mrgreen:

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Re: ICL vs. .050” Cam Degreeing Methods

Post by GARY C »

BBO Omega wrote: Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:44 pm I know that Crane recommends the .050” Tappet Lift as the preferred method for Degreeing Asymmetrical ground Camshafts. What do the professionals on here that do this for a living have to say. I know as a novice, the .050” method is very simple and repeatable.
Does either method really matter considering best performance is usually found by dialing it in on the dyno and is usually not what the cam card calls for?
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Re: ICL vs. .050” Cam Degreeing Methods

Post by af2 »

I guess if everyone had a dyno handy that would be the way to go? HMMM
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Re: ICL vs. .050” Cam Degreeing Methods

Post by af2 »

gmrocket wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:15 pm
statsystems wrote: Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:32 am
Warp Speed wrote: Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:19 am

Probably not, but then, just as in measuring, it comes down to the size of the wheel and the resolution of the gauge.
So please explain your gauge method?

The same way I find the center of lift on a cam lobe. I get it close with just the degree wheel. Then measure and read .050 before and after TDC and split it. Then verify.

I've been checked by several people. It's very easy. Like I said, never had a stop, never bothered to make one.

Anyway, once I know how many degrees I'm off (usually 1 or 2) I split the difference and rotate the degree wheel and then verify once more. Done. I can do it with an 8 inch degree wheel or a 16 (I own both) and I've done it with a 22 but I didn't own that one.


How do you deal with piston rock when using a dial indicator?

Where on the crown does your dial indicator contact on an offset pin ?

next time you set up your indicator, let us know how much needle movement you get when rocking the piston,, and is it the same on a 1" comp height piston and a 2" one?

When you check .050" before and after, do you rotate all the way around in opposite direction to get your other .050", or do you just continue on past tdc and stop at .050"?
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Re: ICL vs. .050” Cam Degreeing Methods

Post by GARY C »

af2 wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:35 pm I guess if everyone had a dyno handy that would be the way to go? HMMM
I always check them to make sure they are within a degree or 2 but if I am not going to the dyno to find the best centerline is it really worth the trouble to dial in a precise centerline? It's good to know as a reference point but only if you are going to test different positions.
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Re: ICL vs. .050” Cam Degreeing Methods

Post by user-23911 »

hoffman900 wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:54 am

You need to find a new camshaft grinder then. Porsche pancake racers have this problem too as the cams spin in different directions. A few grinders understand this and grind accordingly.

You do know what Jay does for a living and who he works for, right?


I don't think you understood what I wrote?
GARY C wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:26 pm

Does either method really matter considering best performance is usually found by dialing it in on the dyno and is usually not what the cam card calls for?
It's no different from checking bearing clearances.
You don't really need to because most of the time they're OK.
BUT
It finds unexpected errors and at the same time teaches you a lot.
That's before you run it.
Some cams are made better than others..............how would you know if it's too hard to measure?
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Re: ICL vs. .050” Cam Degreeing Methods

Post by Warp Speed »

joe 90 wrote: Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:56 am
hoffman900 wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:54 am

You need to find a new camshaft grinder then. Porsche pancake racers have this problem too as the cams spin in different directions. A few grinders understand this and grind accordingly.

You do know what Jay does for a living and who he works for, right?


I don't think you understood what I wrote?
GARY C wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:26 pm

Does either method really matter considering best performance is usually found by dialing it in on the dyno and is usually not what the cam card calls for?
It's no different from checking bearing clearances.
You don't really need to because most of the time they're OK.
BUT
It finds unexpected errors and at the same time teaches you a lot.
That's before you run it.
Some cams are made better than others..............how would you know if it's too hard to measure?
You obviously live in a different world! Lol
Bearing clearance, cam timing, who needs to check because "most of the time they are ok".............
BTW, checked the cam change I did yesterday 3 times, and got the same measurement within .1 degree. Must not know what I'm doing! Lol
For as intelligent (maybe just educated) as you appear, some of your statements baffle me!
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Re: ICL vs. .050” Cam Degreeing Methods

Post by hoffman900 »

Warp Speed wrote: Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:08 am
joe 90 wrote: Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:56 am
hoffman900 wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:54 am

You need to find a new camshaft grinder then. Porsche pancake racers have this problem too as the cams spin in different directions. A few grinders understand this and grind accordingly.

You do know what Jay does for a living and who he works for, right?


I don't think you understood what I wrote?
GARY C wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:26 pm

Does either method really matter considering best performance is usually found by dialing it in on the dyno and is usually not what the cam card calls for?
It's no different from checking bearing clearances.
You don't really need to because most of the time they're OK.
BUT
It finds unexpected errors and at the same time teaches you a lot.
That's before you run it.
Some cams are made better than others..............how would you know if it's too hard to measure?
You obviously live in a different world! Lol
Bearing clearance, cam timing, who needs to check because "most of the time they are ok".............
BTW, checked the cam change I did yesterday 3 times, and got the same measurement within .1 degree. Must not know what I'm doing! Lol
For as intelligent (maybe just educated) as you appear, some of your statements baffle me!
Sorry Jay, but I believe there is video proof of you just slapping an engine together in like 24 minutes without checking anything. :lol: :wink:
Last edited by hoffman900 on Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ICL vs. .050” Cam Degreeing Methods

Post by hoffman900 »

joe 90 wrote: Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:56 am
hoffman900 wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:54 am

You need to find a new camshaft grinder then. Porsche pancake racers have this problem too as the cams spin in different directions. A few grinders understand this and grind accordingly.

You do know what Jay does for a living and who he works for, right?


I don't think you understood what I wrote?
GARY C wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:26 pm

Does either method really matter considering best performance is usually found by dialing it in on the dyno and is usually not what the cam card calls for?
It's no different from checking bearing clearances.
You don't really need to because most of the time they're OK.
BUT
It finds unexpected errors and at the same time teaches you a lot.
That's before you run it.
Some cams are made better than others..............how would you know if it's too hard to measure?
I fully understand what you wrote. You need to find a new cam grinder if they’re using the wrong lobes (or have them backwards) for the valvetrain geometry. There are plenty of finger follower and OHC rocker engines out there and cam grinders are capable of getting them right, but they do require bespoke lobes- you get what you pay for.
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Re: ICL vs. .050” Cam Degreeing Methods

Post by Warp Speed »

hoffman900 wrote: Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:15 am
Warp Speed wrote: Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:08 am
joe 90 wrote: Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:56 am



I don't think you understood what I wrote?



It's no different from checking bearing clearances.
You don't really need to because most of the time they're OK.
BUT
It finds unexpected errors and at the same time teaches you a lot.
That's before you run it.
Some cams are made better than others..............how would you know if it's too hard to measure?
You obviously live in a different world! Lol
Bearing clearance, cam timing, who needs to check because "most of the time they are ok".............
BTW, checked the cam change I did yesterday 3 times, and got the same measurement within .1 degree. Must not know what I'm doing! Lol
For as intelligent (maybe just educated) as you appear, some of your statements baffle me!
Sorry Jay, but I believe there is video proof of you just slapping an engine together in like 24 minutes without checking anything. :lol: :wink:
Oops........... :P

I actually held the record @ 17.13 (including 1 minute of run time) but that was a different engine (sbf) and I was allot younger! Hahaha
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Re: ICL vs. .050” Cam Degreeing Methods

Post by John Wallace »

Was it just required to start and run, not make a certain HP on dyno?
(lot of difference)

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