How much does average guy leave on the table vs. pro in mundane build?

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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Re: How much does average guy leave on the table vs. pro in mundane build?

Post by steve cowan »

i know a couple of Australian speed talk members here who have dealt with in the past some USA speed talk engine builders and asked for a engine thats makes x amount of power from x amount of displacement and received exactly that plus sometimes more,i personally would love to purchase a 750 hp pump gas 427 SBC from say Reher and Morrison as an example but i dont have the budget and thats why i try and build my own personal engines myself and try and have a reasonable expectation
of the end result, i just re-read randy 331 thread 39 pages of 700hp 383 sbc with fast burn heads deal and always thinking i want to build an engine like that but reality says mine will probably make 520hp and i am ok with that because i try and have a realistic expectation,one major problem for the pro builder in business i could possibly see would be the punter walking off the street and asking for a price on an engine build and then having a heart attack because they dont understand the cost in labour on machine work etc,as myself understand fully and more than happy to pay for quality as long as i get exactly that :D
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Re: How much does average guy leave on the table vs. pro in mundane build?

Post by GARY C »

Frankshaft wrote: Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:22 pm
GARY C wrote: Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:11 pm
steve316 wrote: Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:27 pm I believe the shop Rick360 was with would be happy to build a motor in the same power level or higher.
It's not that he couldn't or wouldn't but few customers will be willing to pay for multiple cams, intakes, carbs, headers and oil pans as well as pay the man hours and dyno time to test all said parts, the last 25 horse could easily approach the cost of the engine it's self and that added power comes at the cost of longevity or more expensive parts to make it live.
That's one of the advantages the pro has. I already know which cam, oil pan, intake, carb, bore prep, valve job the porting required, on which ever heads, and or which ones to start with, headers, etc etc to use because I have already been there done that, and what's needed and what's not necessary for a given combo to make live. Which pieces and parts to use, and which to avoid. As do many others in the business. Wether or not we always spill the beans, is one thing. But I definitely help my do it yourselvers save themselves some grief. But won't give everything away.
Yes that was the point of my original comment, an engine builder is likely to stick to combo's they know work because the expense of improving on it is beyond what most are willing to spend.
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Re: How much does average guy leave on the table vs. pro in mundane build?

Post by lefty o »

depends on who exactly the "pro" is, and who the average guy is.
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Re: How much does average guy leave on the table vs. pro in mundane build?

Post by Jeff Lee »

And your average guy doesn’t understand when he brings in a new set of rods, a new intake manifold, etc., that those parts somehow made it out of QC at the manufacturer and the engine builder is saying it’s out of tolerance and I have to machine your new parts before I assemble it.
I just bought a Scat Modular Ford crank that was 3.750” stroker. Paid $250 for balance assembly as I bought pistons and rods also. Good thing I had the machine shop double check it as it was way off...to the tune of another $350 to get it right. Of course Scat is playing dumb and there went that $250. Should have known better.
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Re: How much does average guy leave on the table vs. pro in mundane build?

Post by tjz450 »

You must mean $2500.
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Re: How much does average guy leave on the table vs. pro in mundane build?

Post by Warp Speed »

tjz450 wrote: Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:52 am You must mean $2500.
For a balance job?!?
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Re: How much does average guy leave on the table vs. pro in mundane build?

Post by Rob R »

I think he meant for the whole rotating assembly and then Scat balancing it.
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Re: How much does average guy leave on the table vs. pro in mundane build?

Post by GARY C »

Jeff Lee wrote: Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:16 pm And your average guy doesn’t understand when he brings in a new set of rods, a new intake manifold, etc., that those parts somehow made it out of QC at the manufacturer and the engine builder is saying it’s out of tolerance and I have to machine your new parts before I assemble it.
I just bought a Scat Modular Ford crank that was 3.750” stroker. Paid $250 for balance assembly as I bought pistons and rods also. Good thing I had the machine shop double check it as it was way off...to the tune of another $350 to get it right. Of course Scat is playing dumb and there went that $250. Should have known better.
I always wondered on some of those balanced assembly if they just sell you bob weight matched parts?...
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Re: How much does average guy leave on the table vs. pro in mundane build?

Post by Jeff Lee »

Bought the forged crank, H-Beam rods, forged pistons, pins, rings, bearings (not to mention oil pump, gaskets, ARP bolts and studs, etc.).
Additional charge of $250 to arrive balanced from Scat. It was off by 20 or 25 grams. Took two slugs of mallory to make it right. The final balancing was by QMP in Chatsworth, CA., a reputable shop.
I bought this assembly from a supplier who was unable to get a response or refund of the $250 from Scat.
Did not find any other issues with the Scat items so I would say for this street car application, it was fine. Just don’t pay for a balance job. There was a recent article in Drag Racing online about Scat and balancing and they were so critical about being within 2 grams. So 20-25 grams is more than a little off.
And to top it off, I ordered the kit with Total Seal Rings and King Bearings. I got Grant rings and Clevlite Bearings. I ended up buying TS Rings and King Bearings, more money out of pocket. I didn’t even bother going back to the seller as he couldn’t even get me a refund on the $250 balance I paid for (and did not get). First time in my life I’ve bought an assembly like this. Bad experience and I’ll just chalk it up to lesson learned.
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Re: How much does average guy leave on the table vs. pro in mundane build?

Post by lefty o »

Jeff Lee wrote: Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:11 pm Bought the forged crank, H-Beam rods, forged pistons, pins, rings, bearings (not to mention oil pump, gaskets, ARP bolts and studs, etc.).
Additional charge of $250 to arrive balanced from Scat. It was off by 20 or 25 grams. Took two slugs of mallory to make it right. The final balancing was by QMP in Chatsworth, CA., a reputable shop.
I bought this assembly from a supplier who was unable to get a response or refund of the $250 from Scat.
Did not find any other issues with the Scat items so I would say for this street car application, it was fine. Just don’t pay for a balance job. There was a recent article in Drag Racing online about Scat and balancing and they were so critical about being within 2 grams. So 20-25 grams is more than a little off.
And to top it off, I ordered the kit with Total Seal Rings and King Bearings. I got Grant rings and Clevlite Bearings. I ended up buying TS Rings and King Bearings, more money out of pocket. I didn’t even bother going back to the seller as he couldn’t even get me a refund on the $250 balance I paid for (and did not get). First time in my life I’ve bought an assembly like this. Bad experience and I’ll just chalk it up to lesson learned.
your supplier should step up and refund the $250, you bought it from him. then its between him and scat.
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Re: How much does average guy leave on the table vs. pro in mundane build?

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Jeff Lee wrote: Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:11 pm Bought the forged crank, H-Beam rods, forged pistons, pins, rings, bearings (not to mention oil pump, gaskets, ARP bolts and studs, etc.).
Additional charge of $250 to arrive balanced from Scat. It was off by 20 or 25 grams. Took two slugs of mallory to make it right. The final balancing was by QMP in Chatsworth, CA., a reputable shop.
I bought this assembly from a supplier who was unable to get a response or refund of the $250 from Scat.
Did not find any other issues with the Scat items so I would say for this street car application, it was fine. Just don’t pay for a balance job. There was a recent article in Drag Racing online about Scat and balancing and they were so critical about being within 2 grams. So 20-25 grams is more than a little off.
And to top it off, I ordered the kit with Total Seal Rings and King Bearings. I got Grant rings and Clevlite Bearings. I ended up buying TS Rings and King Bearings, more money out of pocket. I didn’t even bother going back to the seller as he couldn’t even get me a refund on the $250 balance I paid for (and did not get). First time in my life I’ve bought an assembly like this. Bad experience and I’ll just chalk it up to lesson learned.
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Re: How much does average guy leave on the table vs. pro in mundane build?

Post by Jeff Lee »

your supplier should step up and refund the $250, you bought it from him. then its between him and scat.
[/quote]

I agree. And that’s the route I took. But it’s been probably 6 months and obviously it’s not going to happen.
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Re: How much does average guy leave on the table vs. pro in mundane build?

Post by steve cowan »

Jeff,
did you purchase the harmonic balancer and bolt,plus flex plate (flywheel) and bolts as a balanced assembly from SCAT??
how can you have a balanced rotating assembly without all the parts ??
just had my 383 sbc scat rotating done $350 AU, by my machine shop
i may of missed something and not having a shot at you just seems strange
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Re: How much does average guy leave on the table vs. pro in mundane build?

Post by Jeff Lee »

Internal balance. Flywheel & Balancer are zero.
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Re: How much does average guy leave on the table vs. pro in mundane build?

Post by cab0154 »

As a backyard hack, I will say most people like me who dont do it for a living will make less power. And it is because they dont understand how the stuff works and dont want to know anything new. I cant believe how many people I run into that think all carburetors are still the same as they were in 1970. I also run into a lot of guys that have no idea what they are doing and insist with this part or that part something will be a dog. When you try to explain how to change the combination to make those parts work most put their hands over their ears and say 'no no no no no.' So many of these guys are using general rules from 25 to 40 years ago it is sad. then, if they are farming machine work out to the lowest priced guy they are screwed. I am lucky in that I have access to some very good machinists, some of which have won more national championships than most can dream of and have forgotten more about making power than I will ever know. As far as my own stuff, I rely on what the head/intake porter tells me, what advice some very knowledgeable guys gave me on the cam, what my machinist tells me on the shortblock work they did and then do the assembly to the best of my abilty. Take my time and spend the $ to fix the issues. This last build I had to buy a set of shafts to get the rocker geometry correct. I am sure a lot of people would have slapped it together with the stud mounts and sent it down the road. I just cant do that.
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