How much does average guy leave on the table vs. pro in mundane build?

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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Re: How much does average guy leave on the table vs. pro in mundane build?

Post by Truckedup »

Hobbyist here.....When I got into land speed racing vintage bikes all the self proclaimed experts told me to talk to the few guys who supposedly new everything. I soon discovered they talked in circles or or said nothing. So I looked around this site and asked questions. I built the bike and engine...Set new speed records and the experts are now asking me what I know.....I tell them its tuned like a SBC Lol
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Re: How much does average guy leave on the table vs. pro in mundane build?

Post by pcnsd »

I'll offer my response as a percentage of the professional level based on what I have seen among those I race with.
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Re: How much does average guy leave on the table vs. pro in mundane build?

Post by Frankshaft »

pcnsd wrote: Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:03 pm I'll offer my response as a percentage of the professional level based on what I have seen among those I race with.
Professional 1
Average .91
Low .82
Poor .76
I started to type a long winded reply, even favoring the average home guy in some instances. But, to conclude, to match or beat the pro, the home guy still needs a pro in some capacity to have a chance.
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Re: How much does average guy leave on the table vs. pro in mundane build?

Post by engineczar »

I'm in the maybe 20-30hp camp depending on the money spent.

Lets say a hobbyist who isn't a pure newbie (maybe they've built a couple of previous engines) was spending $3500 on an engine and had a block and a crank to start with. He was farming out the machine work but doing the part selection and assembly himself. Then the same customer walked into a pro's shop with a block, and a crank and $3500. In the end I doubt there will be a 100hp+ difference. True a pro might pick a few different parts but at what additional cost? If you started adding in the cost for things like porting, dyno time, ect. then it's not really an equal comparison. I think the key word here is mundane.

I believe the benefit of going with a pro is beyond just the final power number. Dependability, everything going right the first time, the hassles of the whole process etc.
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Re: How much does average guy leave on the table vs. pro in mundane build?

Post by ptuomov »

Where do you think this difference comes from?

In terms of percentage points, how much comes from volumetric efficiency, how much from combustion efficiency, how much from mechanical efficiency, how much from the ability to turn more rpms, and how much from compression ratio (really, expansion ratio)? (Assuming both the amateur and the pro both use the same fuel.)

Which of these separates the amateurs from pros?
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Re: How much does average guy leave on the table vs. pro in mundane build?

Post by pcnsd »

Frankshaft wrote: Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:56 pm
pcnsd wrote: Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:03 pm I'll offer my response as a percentage of the professional level based on what I have seen among those I race with.
Professional 1
Average .91
Low .82
Poor .76
I started to type a long winded reply, even favoring the average home guy in some instances. But, to conclude, to match or beat the pro, the home guy still needs a pro in some capacity to have a chance.
I have seen a few amateurs match the pros, but they are not the average. I like to think I could match them...if I wanted [-o< , but in my arena HP is not everything and can make you slower if you aren't up to the challenge.
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Re: How much does average guy leave on the table vs. pro in mundane build?

Post by pcnsd »

ptuomov wrote: Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:12 pm Where do you think this difference comes from?

In terms of percentage points, how much comes from volumetric efficiency, how much from combustion efficiency, how much from mechanical efficiency, how much from the ability to turn more rpms, and how much from compression ratio (really, expansion ratio)? (Assuming both the amateur and the pro both use the same fuel.)

Which of these separates the amateurs from pros?
Building an engine package and for that matter a chassis package in which for want of better wording "the stars align" for the application, operator and time. Where all the components and choices support the single goal of perfection however that is defined by the need.

In most cases, I think the two are not separated by much and may occasionally switch depending.
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Re: How much does average guy leave on the table vs. pro in mundane build?

Post by pamotorman »

I build pro type engines only if I knew the owner knew how to tune and take care of it.
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Re: How much does average guy leave on the table vs. pro in mundane build?

Post by ptuomov »

pcnsd wrote: Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:11 pm
ptuomov wrote: Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:12 pm Where do you think this difference comes from?

In terms of percentage points, how much comes from volumetric efficiency, how much from combustion efficiency, how much from mechanical efficiency, how much from the ability to turn more rpms, and how much from compression ratio (really, expansion ratio)? (Assuming both the amateur and the pro both use the same fuel.)

Which of these separates the amateurs from pros?
Building an engine package and for that matter a chassis package in which for want of better wording "the stars align" for the application, operator and time. Where all the components and choices support the single goal of perfection however that is defined by the need.

In most cases, I think the two are not separated by much and may occasionally switch depending.
Let me rephrase that. Suppose that pro-build is perfectly balanced and everything is working in harmony, thus attribution of the performance to those components is difficult. But surely we can allocate the cost of amateur mistakes into these areas, right?

Worse volumetric efficiency
Worse combustion efficiency
Worse mechanical efficiency
Inability to turn more rpms
Lowe compression ratio (really, expansion ratio)

So how do the amateur mistakes cost power, if you allocate that cost to these categories?
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Re: How much does average guy leave on the table vs. pro in mundane build?

Post by GARY C »

It depends on the size of your table and your definition of "pro"!

Most shops stick with known combos that produce good power and live but outside that box they are just the average guy looking for extra power where the average guy is more likely to be looking for extra power but my not be able to do it on a repeatable basis.

Most pro shops do not have customers willing to fund R&D and are to busy servicing the customers needs to do it them selves where many average/hobbyist main priority is R&D.
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Re: How much does average guy leave on the table vs. pro in mundane build?

Post by NewbVetteGuy »

Depends upon who the professional is and who the hobbyist is, right?

I also like the previous poster who highlighted that the hobbyist can do many things themselves and save on labor, but they're not going to have the connections and bulk buying power to get the same discounts on the hardware unless they work really hard and take forever.


This hobbyist sure did ok by himself mostly: http://www.chevelles.com/forums/13-perf ... -test.html

Then there's Rick360 the self-described "hobbyist" who was on a winning Engine Master's team last year, but if you've read many of Rick's posts on here, you know he's either a former professional or a freak-of-nature and belongs in some sort of automotive traveling circus side-show. (I mean that in the best possible way, Rick.) :D
https://www.hotrod.com/articles/get-570 ... -pump-gas/

But you're looking for generalizations and rules-of-thumb and I'm posting exceptions...


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Re: How much does average guy leave on the table vs. pro in mundane build?

Post by NewbVetteGuy »

GARY C wrote: Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:36 pm It depends on the size of your table and your definition of "pro"!

Most shops stick with known combos that produce good power and live but outside that box they are just the average guy looking for extra power where the average guy is more likely to be looking for extra power but my not be able to do it on a repeatable basis.

Most pro shops do not have customers willing to fund R&D and are to busy servicing the customers needs to do it themselves where many average/hobbyist main priority is R&D.
I like this point, too. A hobbyist can spend obscene hours planning in intricate detail on their one build every 5 years; a professional can only spend a "commercially reasonable" amount of time planning a single build and that definition of commercially reasonable depends upon how much they're charging you.


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Re: How much does average guy leave on the table vs. pro in mundane build?

Post by GARY C »

NewbVetteGuy wrote: Fri Jul 06, 2018 7:23 pm Depends upon who the professional is and who the hobbyist is, right?

I also like the previous poster who highlighted that the hobbyist can do many things themselves and save on labor, but they're not going to have the connections and bulk buying power to get the same discounts on the hardware unless they work really hard and take forever.


This hobbyist sure did ok by himself mostly: http://www.chevelles.com/forums/13-perf ... -test.html

Then there's Rick360 the self-described "hobbyist" who was on a winning Engine Master's team last year, but if you've read many of Rick's posts on here, you know he's either a former professional or a freak-of-nature and belongs in some sort of automotive traveling circus side-show. (I mean that in the best possible way, Rick.) :D
https://www.hotrod.com/articles/get-570 ... -pump-gas/

But you're looking for generalizations and rules-of-thumb and I'm posting exceptions...


Adam
My guess is if you contacted the shop that they were involved with he would not sell you that engine combo, you would get one that produces less power, not because he can't but because those engines are produced to make max power and would probably not have the same longevity that he wants for his reputation.

My machine shop hates nitrous and will not put his name on a nitrous engine because when the engine blows up is makes him look bad but he loves nitrous customers because when an engine blows up they have to pay him to fix it. :)
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Post by dwilliams »

"How high is up?"

Making power isn't the hard part. But power comes at a steep price, and the price is in two things: "how long do you expect it to last?" for racing engines and "how much suck are you willing to put up with?" for street engines.

For a street motor, "suck" is the reason big-HP street motors often wind up seeing very few miles. "Oh, I can live with six inches of vacuum at idle" or "my buddy runs a 4500 convertor and it was fine" or "it's winter and this ultra-trick racing carburetor has no choke" or "the tune is so close to detonation, every tank of gas is a new adventure" or "gee, I never realized there were so many red lights and stop signs around here, and this thing won't idle below 1200 RPM." And then they wind up twiddling the screws on the carburetor and moving the distributor around, and they complain that they're not making the power they paid for...

The parts and tuning are often considerably different depending on whether someone just wants bragging rights, or if they actually want to drive the thing. Some people call it "managing customer expectations." I always presented it as "how much suck are you willing to put up with?"
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Re: How much does average guy leave on the table vs. pro in mundane build?

Post by blykins »

GARY C wrote: Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:36 pm Most pro shops do not have customers willing to fund R&D and are to busy servicing the customers needs to do it them selves where many average/hobbyist main priority is R&D.
I build engines for myself to try new things. Pretty good R&D.

A lot of my builder buddies also drag race their own stuff. Some others participate in EMC, etc.
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