Speedmaster aluminum block

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statsystems
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Re: Speedmaster aluminum block

Post by statsystems » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:07 pm

Dave Koehler wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:44 pm
For crying out loud, will you children stop it.
13 pages of name calling and nothing learned.
Go get a Snickers.


Even that won't help. You have people who are professional argument makers. You can post your real world experience, backed up by professional people no less that Larry Meaux and Darin Morgan and they still want to tell you how stupid you are because so and so runs his car on a dirt bull ring with a stupid weight limit blah blah blah. Or how an inline 4 can be compared to a V-8 that has had its architecture blown out beyond what any engineer ever had in mind when designing it.

I mean really...can any thinking, intelligent man not see the folly in such thinking? Let's take a liter 4 cylinder, and increase its bore, stroke and RPM increased in an equal amount to what the standard American V-8 has been and THEN tell me how good the aluminum is.

Not one of us has said aluminum doesn't have a place in engine blocks. If you are under 1000 HP and N/A and if your stupid rules don't allow flyweight shit the cast iron will beat it every time.

I had a customer back in 1998 with a dragster. I begged him not to buy an aluminum block for his car. He figured weight was better than HP. It wasn't. Since it was a rear engine car, he had to add weight to the car to get it to hook and he gave up power.

He stepped on his own dick. The car never performed like he thought it would, but did exactly what I told him it would. A couple seasons later he parked the car.

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Re: Speedmaster aluminum block

Post by Headguy » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:37 am

statsystems wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:07 pm
Dave Koehler wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:44 pm
For crying out loud, will you children stop it.
13 pages of name calling and nothing learned.
Go get a Snickers.


Even that won't help. You have people who are professional argument makers. You can post your real world experience, backed up by professional people no less that Larry Meaux and Darin Morgan and they still want to tell you how stupid you are because so and so runs his car on a dirt bull ring with a stupid weight limit blah blah blah. Or how an inline 4 can be compared to a V-8 that has had its architecture blown out beyond what any engineer ever had in mind when designing it.

I mean really...can any thinking, intelligent man not see the folly in such thinking? Let's take a liter 4 cylinder, and increase its bore, stroke and RPM increased in an equal amount to what the standard American V-8 has been and THEN tell me how good the aluminum is.

Not one of us has said aluminum doesn't have a place in engine blocks. If you are under 1000 HP and N/A and if your stupid rules don't allow flyweight shit the cast iron will beat it every time.

I had a customer back in 1998 with a dragster. I begged him not to buy an aluminum block for his car. He figured weight was better than HP. It wasn't. Since it was a rear engine car, he had to add weight to the car to get it to hook and he gave up power.

He stepped on his own dick. The car never performed like he thought it would, but did exactly what I told him it would. A couple seasons later he parked the car.
I haven't had that problem, I have built hundreds of aluminum engines. And had a few back to back te sts. The most I lost was about 1.5 %.

I would never build a 12" deck height 5.100" bore engine out of cast. The block alone would weigh probably 7-800lbs. Maybe your issues were ring seal. Fix that don't blame the alloy.

What's funny is even the LS engine. I have some the same 408 combo in iron and aluminum and they make the same power NA/Boost within 1-2% I just don't see the huge loss you do. I guess I'm the only one.

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Re: Speedmaster aluminum block

Post by MadBill » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:48 am

Be interesting to compare blowby in CI vs. AL versions of the same engine. Maybe the latter would benefit more from TS Gapless® rings... :-k
(Woops! Another hot-button topic... #-o )
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Re: Speedmaster aluminum block

Post by Headguy » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:53 am

MadBill wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:48 am
Be interesting to compare blowby in CI vs. AL versions of the same engine. Maybe the latter would benefit more from TS Gapless® rings... :-k
(Woops! Another hot-button topic... #-o )
Lol

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Re: Speedmaster aluminum block

Post by billet » Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:16 am

hoffman900 wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:48 pm


I believe the Ford RY45 is really just an aluminum NASCAR spec FR9. Jay might have insight from his friends at Roush on if there are power differences with an equal spec build.

Not sure you can compare the RY45 at least the dirt late model version to the FR9, just due to the RY is 436 CID. Don't they make another version of the RY45 more similar to a cup engine that I'm aware of, but certainly possible.

We have 2 of them and they make 906 and 908 and that is on a different dyno then Andy Durham's. On a side note: we dyno'ed it with 1200 laps (to get a number since it wasn't Durhams dyno) and then freshened it and redyno'ed it and it was only down 8HP before the freshen!

So if the block needed to take a set, it wasn't worth much.

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Re: Speedmaster aluminum block

Post by statsystems » Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:35 am

Headguy wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:37 am
statsystems wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:07 pm
Dave Koehler wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:44 pm
For crying out loud, will you children stop it.
13 pages of name calling and nothing learned.
Go get a Snickers.


Even that won't help. You have people who are professional argument makers. You can post your real world experience, backed up by professional people no less that Larry Meaux and Darin Morgan and they still want to tell you how stupid you are because so and so runs his car on a dirt bull ring with a stupid weight limit blah blah blah. Or how an inline 4 can be compared to a V-8 that has had its architecture blown out beyond what any engineer ever had in mind when designing it.

I mean really...can any thinking, intelligent man not see the folly in such thinking? Let's take a liter 4 cylinder, and increase its bore, stroke and RPM increased in an equal amount to what the standard American V-8 has been and THEN tell me how good the aluminum is.

Not one of us has said aluminum doesn't have a place in engine blocks. If you are under 1000 HP and N/A and if your stupid rules don't allow flyweight shit the cast iron will beat it every time.

I had a customer back in 1998 with a dragster. I begged him not to buy an aluminum block for his car. He figured weight was better than HP. It wasn't. Since it was a rear engine car, he had to add weight to the car to get it to hook and he gave up power.

He stepped on his own dick. The car never performed like he thought it would, but did exactly what I told him it would. A couple seasons later he parked the car.
I haven't had that problem, I have built hundreds of aluminum engines. And had a few back to back te sts. The most I lost was about 1.5 %.

I would never build a 12" deck height 5.100" bore engine out of cast. The block alone would weigh probably 7-800lbs. Maybe your issues were ring seal. Fix that don't blame the alloy.

What's funny is even the LS engine. I have some the same 408 combo in iron and aluminum and they make the same power NA/Boost within 1-2% I just don't see the huge loss you do. I guess I'm the only one.


Ok, are we talking about a 12 inch deck engine or are we talking about a Speedmaster SBC based engine? Yes it makes a difference. I've had my hands on enough aluminum shit with many names on it. Not one ever had a straight, round bore after a few heat cycles. The bores in the block go out of round. Then it puts the sleeves OOR. We were buying over/under sized sleeves, boring the block, fitting the sleeves and them boring and honing back to size. Didn't matter.

Again, for those who can't read or haven't followed the tread...aluminum has its place. But for the OP I'd say I doubt it's worth it.

I can't imagine how many more different combos we can bring up to screw up the thread. It's about the junk assed Speedmaster SBC block. Nothing exotic.

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Re: Speedmaster aluminum block

Post by exhaustgases » Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:05 am

With years of experience working with and machining Al, it had become my least favorite metal, it so easily distorts while machining. It lacks strength, distorts more readily from heat, its soft and can be damaged easily, like scratched with simple gasket removal techniques etc..
A simple proof, you will not see an aluminum crank shaft, though you do see cast iron crankshafts in diesel engines. It is great for testing cnc programs where the final material will be either a stainless or hardened steel. The main reason any auto manufacture uses it for engine blocks is the low cost of machining it, and is likely easier to cast as well. I see it as very funny that supposed high end cars have all Al engines, they seem to be almost disposable engines, like the W8, a very expensive engine with pretty much no parts availability, meaning not meant to be rebuilt / overhauled.
You also will never see main bridge structures, nor high capacity cranes made from it either. Will it work as an engine block yeah, but there are other materials that would do a better job. Just my opinion.
Last edited by exhaustgases on Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Speedmaster aluminum block

Post by Headguy » Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:07 am

statsystems wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:35 am
Headguy wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:37 am
statsystems wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:07 pm




Even that won't help. You have people who are professional argument makers. You can post your real world experience, backed up by professional people no less that Larry Meaux and Darin Morgan and they still want to tell you how stupid you are because so and so runs his car on a dirt bull ring with a stupid weight limit blah blah blah. Or how an inline 4 can be compared to a V-8 that has had its architecture blown out beyond what any engineer ever had in mind when designing it.

I mean really...can any thinking, intelligent man not see the folly in such thinking? Let's take a liter 4 cylinder, and increase its bore, stroke and RPM increased in an equal amount to what the standard American V-8 has been and THEN tell me how good the aluminum is.

Not one of us has said aluminum doesn't have a place in engine blocks. If you are under 1000 HP and N/A and if your stupid rules don't allow flyweight shit the cast iron will beat it every time.

I had a customer back in 1998 with a dragster. I begged him not to buy an aluminum block for his car. He figured weight was better than HP. It wasn't. Since it was a rear engine car, he had to add weight to the car to get it to hook and he gave up power.

He stepped on his own dick. The car never performed like he thought it would, but did exactly what I told him it would. A couple seasons later he parked the car.
I haven't had that problem, I have built hundreds of aluminum engines. And had a few back to back te sts. The most I lost was about 1.5 %.

I would never build a 12" deck height 5.100" bore engine out of cast. The block alone would weigh probably 7-800lbs. Maybe your issues were ring seal. Fix that don't blame the alloy.

What's funny is even the LS engine. I have some the same 408 combo in iron and aluminum and they make the same power NA/Boost within 1-2% I just don't see the huge loss you do. I guess I'm the only one.


Ok, are we talking about a 12 inch deck engine or are we talking about a Speedmaster SBC based engine? Yes it makes a difference. I've had my hands on enough aluminum shit with many names on it. Not one ever had a straight, round bore after a few heat cycles. The bores in the block go out of round. Then it puts the sleeves OOR. We were buying over/under sized sleeves, boring the block, fitting the sleeves and them boring and honing back to size. Didn't matter.

Again, for those who can't read or haven't followed the tread...aluminum has its place. But for the OP I'd say I doubt it's worth it.

I can't imagine how many more different combos we can bring up to screw up the thread. It's about the junk assed Speedmaster SBC block. Nothing exotic.
So you know these are junk how? Have you used them? Have you ever probed a production block and found one perfect?

What type of tooling did you make your bores round with? So just because you have built a bunch of junk, you will slam anyone else that inquires to use an aluminum block? What if this block happens to be great?

Foundry and machining skills can be the same or better overseas than here in the USSA. Who knows the process? All I am saying is if he wants to use it, why not? I would rather out the extra money into valvetrain parts. It's his money

I had a guy tell me to build high 600" engine for a show only car. He wanted aluminum block, asked if we could polish it, polished BDS blower, polished heads, polished and engraved valve covers, gold anodized carbs. And didn't care what was in the rest of it for parts. It could have been a 427 tall deck for all he cared. He just wanted the look.

Do you belittle him and take away his dream?

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Re: Speedmaster aluminum block

Post by statsystems » Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:36 am

Headguy wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:07 am
statsystems wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:35 am
Headguy wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:37 am


I haven't had that problem, I have built hundreds of aluminum engines. And had a few back to back te sts. The most I lost was about 1.5 %.

I would never build a 12" deck height 5.100" bore engine out of cast. The block alone would weigh probably 7-800lbs. Maybe your issues were ring seal. Fix that don't blame the alloy.

What's funny is even the LS engine. I have some the same 408 combo in iron and aluminum and they make the same power NA/Boost within 1-2% I just don't see the huge loss you do. I guess I'm the only one.


Ok, are we talking about a 12 inch deck engine or are we talking about a Speedmaster SBC based engine? Yes it makes a difference. I've had my hands on enough aluminum shit with many names on it. Not one ever had a straight, round bore after a few heat cycles. The bores in the block go out of round. Then it puts the sleeves OOR. We were buying over/under sized sleeves, boring the block, fitting the sleeves and them boring and honing back to size. Didn't matter.

Again, for those who can't read or haven't followed the tread...aluminum has its place. But for the OP I'd say I doubt it's worth it.

I can't imagine how many more different combos we can bring up to screw up the thread. It's about the junk assed Speedmaster SBC block. Nothing exotic.
So you know these are junk how? Have you used them? Have you ever probed a production block and found one perfect?

What type of tooling did you make your bores round with? So just because you have built a bunch of junk, you will slam anyone else that inquires to use an aluminum block? What if this block happens to be great?

Foundry and machining skills can be the same or better overseas than here in the USSA. Who knows the process? All I am saying is if he wants to use it, why not? I would rather out the extra money into valvetrain parts. It's his money

I had a guy tell me to build high 600" engine for a show only car. He wanted aluminum block, asked if we could polish it, polished BDS blower, polished heads, polished and engraved valve covers, gold anodized carbs. And didn't care what was in the rest of it for parts. It could have been a 427 tall deck for all he cared. He just wanted the look.

Do you belittle him and take away his dream?
Take your sad butt hurt somewhere else. I don't care about where something is made. You just go on some rant for nothing. Did you read the thread? I doubt it. Never seen the Speedmaster block. Nor do I care to. It's just another product for a need that isn't there.

As for your customer...my suggestion is he go somewhere else. Of course, he sounds like a bubble gummer so you two should a pair.

Next time, try reading the whole thread.

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Re: Speedmaster aluminum block

Post by hoffman900 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:11 am

billet wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:16 am
hoffman900 wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:48 pm


I believe the Ford RY45 is really just an aluminum NASCAR spec FR9. Jay might have insight from his friends at Roush on if there are power differences with an equal spec build.

Not sure you can compare the RY45 at least the dirt late model version to the FR9, just due to the RY is 436 CID. Don't they make another version of the RY45 more similar to a cup engine that I'm aware of, but certainly possible.

We have 2 of them and they make 906 and 908 and that is on a different dyno then Andy Durham's. On a side note: we dyno'ed it with 1200 laps (to get a number since it wasn't Durhams dyno) and then freshened it and redyno'ed it and it was only down 8HP before the freshen!

So if the block needed to take a set, it wasn't worth much.
Thanks. I’m sure this will be ignored by the rest.
-Bob

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Re: Speedmaster aluminum block

Post by desoto30 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:19 am

Well I just read the whole thread,,,,, & let's say, it turned out a shitfight, with little value at all.

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Re: Speedmaster aluminum block

Post by midnightbluS10 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:04 am

That's how most threads seem to end up. Seems we have a bunch of immature, scared little boys that like to talk shit behind anonymous screen names.


Be an adult. Own what you post. Put a name to it.


Or is that too much adulting for one day for all the little boys at speedtalk?

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Re: Speedmaster aluminum block

Post by Headguy » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:57 am

statsystems wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:36 am
statsystems wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:35 am




Ok, are we talking about a 12 inch deck engine or are we talking about a Speedmaster SBC based engine? Yes it makes a difference. I've had my hands on enough aluminum shit with many names on it. Not one ever had a straight, round bore after a few heat cycles. The bores in the block go out of round. Then it puts the sleeves OOR. We were buying over/under sized sleeves, boring the block, fitting the sleeves and them boring and honing back to size. Didn't matter.

Again, for those who can't read or haven't followed the tread...aluminum has its place. But for the OP I'd say I doubt it's worth it.

I can't imagine how many more different combos we can bring up to screw up the thread. It's about the junk assed Speedmaster SBC block. Nothing exotic.
As for your customer...my suggestion is he go somewhere else. Of course, he sounds like a bubble gummer so you two should a pair.

Next time, try reading the whole thread.
All I had to read was, the guy allocated a sbf aluminum block. And all you guys did is tell him how aluminum blocks are junk, and he will loose power. And how you don't care what anyone says. They are junk because you have no clue how to build something that will run.

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Re: Speedmaster aluminum block

Post by blykins » Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:21 am

elwood wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:11 pm
what do you call a engine builder, machinist, tuner, over-all automotive self declared God and superhero with a boo boo fingy that works out of his trunk with a cell phone?
The finger is healing, but not as quickly as I need it to.

Went from this:

Image

To this:

Image

Have it in a splint as of right now, start physical therapy next week. Hard to work with 1.5 hands, but I'm getting stuff done. Just knocked out a 402 9.200" SBF short block last weekend and got it shipped. Took a lot longer than it should have though. Appreciate the concern, thanks for asking!

Image
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Re: Speedmaster aluminum block

Post by Warp Speed » Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:32 am

hoffman900 wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:48 pm


I believe the Ford RY45 is really just an aluminum NASCAR spec FR9. Jay might have insight from his friends at Roush on if there are power differences with an equal spec build.
Don't know the performance difference between the two blocks, but the first version of the RY45 was basically an aluminum FR9. They had a max bore of 4.150 if I remember correctly. They weren't a Siamese bore (just like the FR9) so you couldn't take advantage of the 4.5 bore space. The newer versions are siamese.

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