Water injection

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Circlotron
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Re: Water injection

Post by Circlotron » Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:36 am

Tried kerosene in a 9:1 CR engine during a petrol strike way back. Pinged ever, ever so easily. Turned the oil black pretty quick too. Water injection with kerosene would be an interesting experiment. I know it doesn’t vaporise as easily so lots of manifold heat would be needed which would further encourage pinging. Dunno what the calorific value of it is compared to gasoline but probably not too different. Kerosene on a very tiny single primary and E98 on big secondaries...

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Re: Water injection

Post by jacksoni » Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:05 am

By the way, methanol in any concentration (50:50 or otherwise) is toxic and cannot be made not. As little as 10cc can kill you or make you go blind. Some is absorbed through the skin as well. It should be treated with care in handling. Now back to your regular programming.

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Re: Water injection

Post by Scotthatch » Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:21 pm

Controlling charge temperature does a lot for detonation control .... on roots blowers no intercooler high drive ratio you will add heat as your efficiency drops with blower speed ..... on a turbo with intercooler at low boost the intercooler will keep the temperature down and you will not need the extra help but as boost goes up if the intercooler can't keep up then water methanol can make up the difference ... on the twin turbo ls motor I am dealing with now we see no difference up to around 12 lbs of boost using a snow system but above that it is a real help and let's it go to 21 lbs with no timing change needed .... if you look at the turbo mustang deal with icebox intercooler you can run hoops of boost without problems because the charge temperature is in the 50 degree range ..... the effect of methanol may be more in the runner changing charge temperature then in combustion as it needs time to use the heat and change state and as said needs heat to do this ... so volume needed is probably more related to temperature then volume ... I have used systems on and off for a lot of years and even the old super basic edelbrock veri-jection did help .... lastly the latent heat of vaporization of methanol water and ethanol all very so what is needed depends on the heat energy needed to be used up to cool

Circlotron
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Re: Water injection

Post by Circlotron » Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:42 pm

Ignoring any packaging problems, on a turbo setup if you could get the same air temperature using either an intercooler or water injection, does one method have an advantage over the other as regards resistance to detonation for the same temperature and boost pressure? That is to say, does the presence of water help beyond simply getting the temperature down?

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Re: Water injection

Post by Truckedup » Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:12 pm

Water injection has one drawback compared to an intercooler, it has to be refilled ...But the intercooler can be hard to fit under hood...
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Re: Water injection

Post by F-BIRD'88 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:54 pm

the water does take up space, that otherwise could be occupied by air and fuel. but does contribute to piston push some on the power stroke as steam expands. The intercooler adds weight and can suffer from hot soak.

The water also adds a buffer action being between combustable molecules, to keep combustion speed under control. It modrrates the reaction speed helps delay preignition.. Keeps comvustion from getting out of hand when things get hot.

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Re: Water injection

Post by user-23911 » Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:53 am

Circlotron wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:42 pm
Ignoring any packaging problems, on a turbo setup if you could get the same air temperature using either an intercooler or water injection, does one method have an advantage over the other as regards resistance to detonation for the same temperature and boost pressure? That is to say, does the presence of water help beyond simply getting the temperature down?
If you've gone oldschool and are using a turbo with suck through carburettor, you can't use an intercooler.
So water injection is the only way to go.
A good WI system doesn't require an intercooler.

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Re: Water injection

Post by midnightbluS10 » Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:29 am

joe 90 wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:50 pm
Methanol belongs in the fuel tank.

It's only purpose when mixed with the water is to stop it from freezing.
Ethanol is better at that job and it's not toxic.

The 50/50 water methanol thing, it's fairytale stuff, made up by the marketing people.
No, it's backed by science, actually.


Proof of fairytales?

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Re: Water injection

Post by midnightbluS10 » Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:32 am

joe 90 wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:37 pm
Well you obviously haven't read the links because it'll take you hours or days.

In my part of the world water is FREE.
It's also clean so you don't need distilled water.
BUT
If I want to use distilled water it's also free.
That's because in my part of the world it's legal to make your own moonshine for your own consumption which many people do including myself.
So when the still isn't distilling alcohol (heads and tails used in the water tank) it can distill water.

The only free water is rain water or stuff you collect from a river or lake. You pay for anything else. Collect enough rainwater and you'll pay for that, too.

Just because you don't pay cash for each use doesn't mean it's free. Don't you get a water&sewage & utilities bills each month? Then your water isn't free. Lmao. Even in New Zealand, most Regional Councils charge for the water they supply. That is where you're at, right? Land of the long white cloud?

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Re: Water injection

Post by Truckedup » Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:26 am

F-BIRD'88 wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:54 pm
the water does take up space, that otherwise could be occupied by air and fuel. but does contribute to piston push some on the power stroke as steam expands. The intercooler adds weight and can suffer from hot soak.

The water also adds a buffer action being between combustable molecules, to keep combustion speed under control. It modrrates the reaction speed helps delay preignition.. Keeps comvustion from getting out of hand when things get hot.
Are you currently using a water/alcohol injection system? Is it home made of a manufactured unit? How big is the storage tank?
Motorcycle land speed racing... wearing animal hides and clinging to vibrating oily machines propelled by fire

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Re: Water injection

Post by n2xlr8n » Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:57 am

I used it on for several years on Subaru EJs before- Snow Performance iirc. After a while, I simply converted to E85 and really loved that.
He who is in me is greater than he who is in the world.

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Re: Water injection

Post by user-23911 » Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:19 am

midnightbluS10 wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:32 am



The only free water is rain water or stuff you collect from a river or lake. You pay for anything else. Collect enough rainwater and you'll pay for that, too.

Just because you don't pay cash for each use doesn't mean it's free. Don't you get a water&sewage & utilities bills each month? Then your water isn't free. Lmao. Even in New Zealand, most Regional Councils charge for the water they supply. That is where you're at, right? Land of the long white cloud?
No water meters. In some places, yes, but not where I live. So it's freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

If you own your own home you pay for it in your rates bill whether you use it or not.
If you rent a home it's built into the rent so you pay whether you use it or you don't....so it's free.


OK just to get un PC ...........but maybe you live in a shit hole and I don't?
What was it that Trump said about shit hole countries?


It's already Saturday here ....you're still stuck on yesterday........that'll never change.
You'll never catch up.

But murica is the land of the freeeeeee.
In your dreams?



There's a big drama going on right now because there's a chinese owned water bottling plant in Whakatane just got the go ahead for expansion, they're getting the water out of the ground for free and bottling it, probably exporting it to YOU.But it must be good because it's providing about 60 new jobs?






Yes, water is still free.

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Re: Water injection

Post by Scotthatch » Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:36 pm

F-BIRD'88 wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:54 pm
the water does take up space, that otherwise could be occupied by air and fuel. but does contribute to piston push some on the power stroke as steam expands. The intercooler adds weight and can suffer from hot soak.

The water also adds a buffer action being between combustable molecules, to keep combustion speed under control. It modrrates the reaction speed helps delay preignition.. Keeps comvustion from getting out of hand when things get hot.

Having worked on a few steam engines and power plants most people don't know that going from liquid water to steam increases the volume by 1700% ... there is a lot of power in steam .... not sure I want to convert but just saying

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Re: Water injection

Post by Schurkey » Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:05 pm

Scotthatch wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:36 pm
going from liquid water to steam increases the volume by 1700% ...
...and if it's vaporizing in the intake system (not in the cylinder) think of how much fuel/air mix is displaced!

OTOH, get the water into the cylinder where it can vaporize from the heat of compression, and/or the actual burning fuel/air mix, and that 1700% expansion is likely to do wonders for power output (and combustion chamber carbon deposits.)

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Re: Water injection

Post by MadBill » Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:22 pm

So if the water was direct-injected you'd have an IC semi-steam engine? :-k
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