Water injection

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F-BIRD'88
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Re: Water injection

Post by F-BIRD'88 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:47 pm

The methanol in the 50-50 water methanol mix ALSO is MUCH more tolerant on the metering as methanol can be run quite "rich" without power penalty. A 50-50 mix of water methanol is most powerfull, WHILE, the best at superessing detonation
and the most Tolerant at not needeing to be so exact on the metering over a wide range of CONDITIONS. It is MORE practical overall.

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Re: Water injection

Post by joe 90 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:55 pm

You need time to read the given links.

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Re: Water injection

Post by F-BIRD'88 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:57 pm

You need to do less reading and more actual hot rodding.
Use the stuff in real world situations, like roots supercharging a street motor. Especially the lil B&M blowers.

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Re: Water injection

Post by shoedoos » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:04 pm

on a N/A application, what is the best way to activate a water/meth injection system? Micro-switch? Knock sensor? Vacuum? What?

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Re: Water injection

Post by NewbVetteGuy » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:12 pm

What about direct injection of your water?

These guys make some pretty badass port and direct water injectors- Inject your water at 280 BAR/>4,000PSI! lol!:
http://www.nostrumenergy.com/water-injectors.aspx

Adam

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Re: Water injection

Post by joe 90 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:20 pm

F-BIRD'88 wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:57 pm
You need to do less reading and more actual hot rodding.
Use the stuff in real world situations, like roots supercharging a street motor. Especially the lil B&M blowers.
I've been using water injection in various forms as long as I've been playing with turbos and that's since about 1982.


There's lots of different ways to activate it.
By far the simplest is to pressurise the tank with boost and have the outlet at the turbo inlet.
It's very crude but it works. A good starting point which can only get better.


As far as N/A, it depends on whether it's carburettor or EFI.
If it's EFI then you can tap into the TPS and use a jaycar kitset (or similar)to operate a relay .......or you can tap into an injector and use the signal to PWM drive a pump via a circuit. There's many other ways too.
With a carburettor it's a bit more tricky. Still need custom electronics, a combination or RPM and throttle position as inputs.
However you do it, you've got to have some sort of tank with sufficient capacity, then some sort of pump and jets.

The very best setup would duplicate and EFI fuel system.
Last edited by joe 90 on Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Water injection

Post by Truckedup » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:22 pm

Opps
Last edited by Truckedup on Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Water injection

Post by Truckedup » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:23 pm

shoedoos wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:04 pm
on a N/A application, what is the best way to activate a water/meth injection system? Micro-switch? Knock sensor? Vacuum? What?
I used an adjustable vacuum activated switch....Like alot of NA engines, mine detonated at low vacuum mid RPM ranges....
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Re: Water injection

Post by tresi » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:59 pm

Has anybody ever try jetting a N/A engine for cruise and disabling the power valve or other fuel enrichment and then rely on 100% alcohol injection for the fuel enrichment. This would probably have to come in 2 or more stages. I would guess you still want a limited accelerator pump.

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Re: Water injection

Post by F-BIRD'88 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:09 pm

Yes a long time ago GM had a 1930's ish concept show car that had a supercharged engine with a DUAL fuel Carb setup. It would drive around on common pump gas and when at some throttle point/boost point the secondary carb would start up adding methanol to the mix.
2 fuel tanks 2 pumps etc.

A guy here in Canada had a dual fuel holley DP 4bbl carb.
The primary side used pump gas and the secondary side used methanol. again 2 tanks 2 pumps etc.
No idea what happened to that.

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Re: Water injection

Post by grandsport51 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:29 pm

That Dual Fuel Showcar was the first LeSabre
Great Memory F Bird

The Le Sabre was the brainchild of General Motors Art Department head Harley Earl.[1] The design was Earl's attempt to incorporate the look of modern jet fighter aircraft into automotive design. As jets replaced prop-driven aircraft in the late 1940s, they symbolized the very latest in design and engineering, and Earl had hoped to carry this concept into automobile design.



The project was a follow-up to Earl's famous 1938 Y-job. Like all his projects, it was built to be roadworthy, and became Earl's personal automobile for two years after finishing its tour of the auto show circuit.[citation needed] With a body made of aluminium, magnesium, and fiberglass,[citation needed] it was powered by a supercharged 215 cu in (3.5 L) V8 able to run on gasoline (petrol) or methanol (like Indy roadsters of the period did), and had an unusually-placed rear-mounted Buick Dynaflow automatic transmission.[1] This was later changed to a GM Hydramatic.[1] In addition to its jet inspired design, the 1951 Le Sabre also featured numerous advanced features, including a 12-volt electrical system (all cars of the period were 6-volt), heated seats, electric headlights concealed behind the center oval "jet intake", front bumper dagmars[1] (later made famous on 1957-9 Cadillacs), a water sensor to activate the power top,[1] and electric lifting jacks integral to the chassis[1] to aid tire changes. (This idea would be copied decades later by Formula One race teams.)

The Le Sabre was GM's first use of a rear-mounted transmission, which would reappear in the Pontiac Tempest.[1] It was also the first use of the aluminum-block 215
It was also GM's first use of the Le Sabre name,[1] which would be adopted by Buick for a new line in 1959.
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Re: Water injection

Post by Truckedup » Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:37 pm

grandsport51 wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:29 pm
That Dual Fuel Showcar was the first LeSabre
Great Memory F Bird

The Le Sabre was the brainchild of General Motors Art Department head Harley Earl.[1] The design was Earl's attempt to incorporate the look of modern jet fighter aircraft into automotive design. As jets replaced prop-driven aircraft in the late 1940s, they symbolized the very latest in design and engineering, and Earl had hoped to carry this concept into automobile design.



The project was a follow-up to Earl's famous 1938 Y-job. Like all his projects, it was built to be roadworthy, and became Earl's personal automobile for two years after finishing its tour of the auto show circuit.[citation needed] With a body made of aluminium, magnesium, and fiberglass,[citation needed] it was powered by a supercharged 215 cu in (3.5 L) V8 able to run on gasoline (petrol) or methanol (like Indy roadsters of the period did), and had an unusually-placed rear-mounted Buick Dynaflow automatic transmission.[1] This was later changed to a GM Hydramatic.[1] In addition to its jet inspired design, the 1951 Le Sabre also featured numerous advanced features, including a 12-volt electrical system (all cars of the period were 6-volt), heated seats, electric headlights concealed behind the center oval "jet intake", front bumper dagmars[1] (later made famous on 1957-9 Cadillacs), a water sensor to activate the power top,[1] and electric lifting jacks integral to the chassis[1] to aid tire changes. (This idea would be copied decades later by Formula One race teams.)

The Le Sabre was GM's first use of a rear-mounted transmission, which would reappear in the Pontiac Tempest.[1] It was also the first use of the aluminum-block 215
It was also GM's first use of the Le Sabre name,[1] which would be adopted by Buick for a new line in 1959.
Are you saying the 215 was around in 1951 ?
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Re: Water injection

Post by Truckedup » Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:42 pm

Truckedup wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:37 pm
grandsport51 wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:29 pm
That Dual Fuel Showcar was the first LeSabre
Great Memory F Bird

The Le Sabre was the brainchild of General Motors Art Department head Harley Earl.[1] The design was Earl's attempt to incorporate the look of modern jet fighter aircraft into automotive design. As jets replaced prop-driven aircraft in the late 1940s, they symbolized the very latest in design and engineering, and Earl had hoped to carry this concept into automobile design.



The project was a follow-up to Earl's famous 1938 Y-job. Like all his projects, it was built to be roadworthy, and became Earl's personal automobile for two years after finishing its tour of the auto show circuit.[citation needed] With a body made of aluminium, magnesium, and fiberglass,[citation needed] it was powered by a supercharged 215 cu in (3.5 L) V8 able to run on gasoline (petrol) or methanol (like Indy roadsters of the period did), and had an unusually-placed rear-mounted Buick Dynaflow automatic transmission.[1] This was later changed to a GM Hydramatic.[1] In addition to its jet inspired design, the 1951 Le Sabre also featured numerous advanced features, including a 12-volt electrical system (all cars of the period were 6-volt), heated seats, electric headlights concealed behind the center oval "jet intake", front bumper dagmars[1] (later made famous on 1957-9 Cadillacs), a water sensor to activate the power top,[1] and electric lifting jacks integral to the chassis[1] to aid tire changes. (This idea would be copied decades later by Formula One race teams.)

The Le Sabre was GM's first use of a rear-mounted transmission, which would reappear in the Pontiac Tempest.[1] It was also the first use of the aluminum-block 215
It was also GM's first use of the Le Sabre name,[1] which would be adopted by Buick for a new line in 1959.
Are you saying the 215 was around in 1951 ? Edit: never mind, I see you printed that article directly off Wikipedia and further on is mention of a 215 development engine that was supercharged..
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grandsport51
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Re: Water injection

Post by grandsport51 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:24 pm

My memory for this stuff isn't quite a good as it was before my heart attacks etc. but it's still OK! ,I remembered the Motorama LeSabre , I also remember reading about Dave Zeuschel having a no peek street racer that was built to run shitty on gas and then when the bets were set the alternate fuel system (Methanol with a little Nitro if I recall) was enabled,
And Dave would shut em down.
I can't find the reference online but I think it was HRM!
He was a hell of a builder !!!
Dave B
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Re: Water injection

Post by gmc406 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:12 am

I find this really interesting. I’ve got 3 old tractors at the farm that all have 3 fuel systems. A large main tank for kerosene, a small tank for gasoline(to start the engine), and another tank for water. I’ve never taken note to see how they plumbed the water in. I know it simply has a pet cock that could be reached and adjusted by the operator on the go.

These tractors are a 1928, and 2-1938’s.

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