recommendation for wideband meter for carbs

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

Moderator: Team

Tuner
Guru
Guru
Posts: 2083
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 5:26 am

Re: recommendation for wideband meter for carbs

Post by Tuner » Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:08 pm

joe 90 wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:35 pm
cjperformance wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:46 pm
MTX-L , i have fitted many these to customers cars, when they ask 'do i need a dyno tune' i say no, invest in a wb02 and you have more than the dyno guy can give you and it cheaper!
I have them on n/a, turbo, sc( and LPG n/a and turbo ). Never had to replace one due to failure , never had a sensor fail. Great units.

Unfortunately when the sensor starts to read wrong, you won't know...........as they all do over time, they have a limited life span.


You can't go wrong with a bosch NB sensor that's been previously bench tested (plenty free ones in junkyards), use that alongside whatever WB you've got .
WB sensors are accurate at the lean side of lambda 1. They're nowhere near as accurate as everyone tries to make out when richer than lambda 1.
That's where the NB comes in....as a backup. Used with a voltmeter.



Fitting such things to customers cars and not seeing them again........it's not the same as using them on your own cars and using them over a period of many years.

Joe, you are mixed up, the NB sensor is the one that is not accurate in rich (or lean) mixtures because sensor temperature variation affects the voltage output. The WB controllers are called controllers because they control both, -->the heater<-- and the pump cell in the sensor. Control of the sensor temperature is essential for accuracy.

Perhaps if you read this you will better understand how the sensors work, NB and WB.

https://wbo2.com/lsu/lsuworks.htm

joe 90
Guru
Guru
Posts: 2642
Joined: Tue May 27, 2014 4:02 am
Location: The land of the long white cloud

Re: recommendation for wideband meter for carbs

Post by joe 90 » Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:24 pm

No, I'm not mixed up at all, I've been using both of them for a long time.

Real life experience isn't the same as sales / marketing BS.


The true test of a WBs accuracy comes from using one on an engine dyno which has mass flow sensors for both fuel and air.......as well as the WB.


If they're that good then they'll give identical numbers all of the time?
But they won't.


The NB is very simple and once bench tested gives and extremely useful backup and comparison to the WB.
The link from tech edge, yes, I built one of those before the cheap units were available.



But however if you want to believe that they read accurately all of the time, that's OK,
How does a WB react to using water injection?
I know the answer to that too and it's not good.
Last edited by joe 90 on Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

cjperformance
Guru
Guru
Posts: 3029
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:20 am
Location: South Australia

Re: recommendation for wideband meter for carbs

Post by cjperformance » Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:26 pm

joe 90 wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:35 pm
cjperformance wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:46 pm
MTX-L , i have fitted many these to customers cars, when they ask 'do i need a dyno tune' i say no, invest in a wb02 and you have more than the dyno guy can give you and it cheaper!
I have them on n/a, turbo, sc( and LPG n/a and turbo ). Never had to replace one due to failure , never had a sensor fail. Great units.

Unfortunately when the sensor starts to read wrong, you won't know...........as they all do over time, they have a limited life span.

Yes as with everything, eventually things wear out.


You can't go wrong with a bosch NB sensor that's been previously bench tested (plenty free ones in junkyards), use that alongside whatever WB you've got .
WB sensors are accurate at the lean side of lambda 1. They're nowhere near as accurate as everyone tries to make out when richer than lambda 1.
That's where the NB comes in....as a backup. Used with a voltmeter.

As Tuner said.

Fitting such things to customers cars and not seeing them again........it's not the same as using them on your own cars and using them over a period of many years.

Almost every one of these I have fitted is still coming back to me in the vehicle for maintenance, in particular, not the earliest one i fitted but probably the longest mileage, comes back at around 3000 miles for service, recalibration etc, this one has done aprox 75000miles now on a turbo LPG engine. It still reads correctly and really if it did fail any time soon that would be a very reasonable life span in my opinion as I have had to replace various factory fit 02 sensors in standard vehicles at +/- this mileage.

.
Craig.

Tuner
Guru
Guru
Posts: 2083
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 5:26 am

Re: recommendation for wideband meter for carbs

Post by Tuner » Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:49 pm

csx7031 wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:40 pm
My thanks to all who responded, it is appreciated. It seems everyone likes what they have. Has anyone tried more than one AFRM and thought one was better than the other? The replacement sensors for the NGK/NTK unit cost more than the others. Any reason that makes them more accurate? Thanks for schooling me on this topic. Chuck
Innovate's digital method of heater and pump cell control is inherently faster and more accurate. The new generation of Bosch 4.9 sensors is designed to optimize digital control.

Firedome8
Guru
Guru
Posts: 3033
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2016 6:16 pm

Re: recommendation for wideband meter for carbs

Post by Firedome8 » Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:15 am

MoTec Plm has served me well for 15 years. Used on a chassis dyno not mounted in a car. Analog out ,powered by a deep cell battery. Very repeatable easy to calibrate. By chance it came with dyno .

blown265
Member
Member
Posts: 169
Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 12:05 am
Location: Western Australia

Re: recommendation for wideband meter for carbs

Post by blown265 » Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:44 am

I use the Tech Edge WB on my personal supercharged propane car, as well as on a number of other pump fuel vehicles. I tune to what the car likes the best (within an 'acceptable' range of Lamba values) and then use that as a baseline for ongoing maintainance/tuning.

I'll echo the sensor longevity issue- perhaps it's my setup, but I'll replace the Bosch sensor every few years of street driving, as the controller display starts giving odd readings or will simply 'freeze'. I'd be keen to hear others experience in solving this as they're not cheap.

Aside from sensors, I'm super satisfied with the Tech Edge products- easy to use/read/data log/etc.

Regards
Paul

cjperformance
Guru
Guru
Posts: 3029
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:20 am
Location: South Australia

Re: recommendation for wideband meter for carbs

Post by cjperformance » Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:01 am

blown265 wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:44 am
I use the Tech Edge WB on my personal supercharged propane car, as well as on a number of other pump fuel vehicles. I tune to what the car likes the best (within an 'acceptable' range of Lamba values) and then use that as a baseline for ongoing maintainance/tuning.

I'll echo the sensor longevity issue- perhaps it's my setup, but I'll replace the Bosch sensor every few years of street driving, as the controller display starts giving odd readings or will simply 'freeze'. I'd be keen to hear others experience in solving this as they're not cheap.

Aside from sensors, I'm super satisfied with the Tech Edge products- easy to use/read/data log/etc.

Regards
Paul
How much mileage do you put on your car?
Were is your sensor placed?
Craig.

David Redszus
Guru
Guru
Posts: 6406
Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:27 am
Location: Chicago
Contact:

Re: recommendation for wideband meter for carbs

Post by David Redszus » Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:17 pm

How accurate should a Lambda sensor be? And how do we know when it is or isn't?

Tuner
Guru
Guru
Posts: 2083
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 5:26 am

Re: recommendation for wideband meter for carbs

Post by Tuner » Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:40 pm

David Redszus wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:17 pm
How accurate should a Lambda sensor be? And how do we know when it is or isn't?
There you have it. Working with a yardstick or a micrometer, you still need to use common sense.

I forgot to mention, a huge advantage of Innovate WBO2 products is the data logging and playback analysis with their LogWorks software program. LogWorks is slicker than sliced bread.

https://www.innovatemotorsports.com/pro ... gworks.php

User avatar
bigblockmopar
Member
Member
Posts: 144
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:53 pm
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

Re: recommendation for wideband meter for carbs

Post by bigblockmopar » Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:39 pm

I might try to beef up the wiring as it can be improved I think.
It does seem however the error code 'usually' shows up after an acceleration.

I've found this link some time ago when searching for a possible reason for 'apparent' sensor failures:
http://www.nzefi.com/bosch-lsu-wide-ban ... lications/

joe 90
Guru
Guru
Posts: 2642
Joined: Tue May 27, 2014 4:02 am
Location: The land of the long white cloud

Re: recommendation for wideband meter for carbs

Post by joe 90 » Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:08 pm

David Redszus wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:17 pm
How accurate should a Lambda sensor be? And how do we know when it is or isn't?
You KNOW when you run it alongside another calibrated device.


I've even run a WB alongside a newly calibrated exhaust gas analyser........
Not at all impressed.


That was before playing with an engine dyno.
That had WB, mass flow sensors AND emissions gear.


They're really just a fancy toy which outputs numbers and looks pretty.........good for impressing your ricer friends.

blown265
Member
Member
Posts: 169
Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 12:05 am
Location: Western Australia

Re: recommendation for wideband meter for carbs

Post by blown265 » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:18 pm

Gday Craig

The sensor is approximately 50 inches from the port, mounted in the collector ( 3-2-1 I6), and at a slight angle above horizontal. It heats up from cold in 15-20 seconds, and works fine for about 10K miles.

I have a second sensor that I use with other vehicles (taking the controller temporarily out of my car). Not sure on its failure rate as it's used in different cars at non frequent times, but the one in my car is permanently mounted without any outside influence.

Regards
Paul

David Redszus
Guru
Guru
Posts: 6406
Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:27 am
Location: Chicago
Contact:

Re: recommendation for wideband meter for carbs

Post by David Redszus » Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:57 am

blown265 wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:18 pm
Gday Craig

The sensor is approximately 50 inches from the port, mounted in the collector ( 3-2-1 I6), and at a slight angle above horizontal. It heats up from cold in 15-20 seconds, and works fine for about 10K miles.

I have a second sensor that I use with other vehicles (taking the controller temporarily out of my car). Not sure on its failure rate as it's used in different cars at non frequent times, but the one in my car is permanently mounted without any outside influence.

Regards
Paul
Fifty inches is along way from the heat source, unless the senor is heated. Modern sensors have an embedded thermocouple
that reads out the sensor tip temperature to assist in proper location.

blown265
Member
Member
Posts: 169
Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 12:05 am
Location: Western Australia

Re: recommendation for wideband meter for carbs

Post by blown265 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:36 am

Gday David
I'm using the Bosch 07200 sensor, and the install is in accordance with the Tech Edge guidelines:
https://www.wbo2.com/lsu/position.htm
They're suggesting 40 inches as a starting point, but up to 60 in certain conditions. Perhaps mine is overcooling, and may benefit from the suggestion TE makes with regard to recessing the sensor.
Thanks
Paul

benno318
Member
Member
Posts: 189
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:55 am
Location: gold coast, AUSTRALIA

Re: recommendation for wideband meter for carbs

Post by benno318 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:41 am

i have supplied and fitted about 8 or so MTX-L setups to my customers race cars, only about 3 of them have been good with no issues, the rest will read incorrect numbers, or just throw an error code that requires sensor replacement. all sensors in all cars are in a very close position to each other, bung welded in at the correct angle etc - my own car i did just one race meeting (under 2 hours run time) when it killed a sensor - i have now fitted 3 new sensors to my own and finally had enough - they last only a matter of hours - i have now purchased a dtec after seeing a mate have a good run with his. so far so good and reads the same as the sensor on the chassis dyno i use, unlike the mtx. great guy to talk to and deal with, cant recommend him and his product enough...

Post Reply