If 50 are good, what about 55?

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Re: If 50 are good, what about 55?

Post by Stan Weiss » Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:12 am

Frankshaft wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:12 pm
Stan Weiss wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 6:59 pm
Frankshaft wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:32 pm

You started out so good in this thread, and then had to done did that. So, no one in this thread, or "the other" thread are qualified to say? Everything everyone else said is not true, wrong, or they don't know? Really?

I started this thread to lighten the mood, and show I have a sense of humor and not to take it so serious, which I thought you got
I would say someone needs to work on their reading comprehension. :shock:

Stan
Do you have a formula for that Stan? It might be helpful. :mrgreen:

That's funny right there, I don't care who you are.
If you say so. But if I was you, I would not make a career. You will not make it as a comedian . :mrgreen:

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Re: If 50 are good, what about 55?

Post by tresi » Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:25 am

gnicholson wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:26 pm
Maybe you guys should skip right over increasing the valve angle and go straight to a spool valve :mrgreen:
That's what I was thinking

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Re: If 50 are good, what about 55?

Post by midnightbluS10 » Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:10 am

Frankshaft wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:12 pm
Stan Weiss wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 6:59 pm
Frankshaft wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:32 pm

You started out so good in this thread, and then had to done did that. So, no one in this thread, or "the other" thread are qualified to say? Everything everyone else said is not true, wrong, or they don't know? Really?

I started this thread to lighten the mood, and show I have a sense of humor and not to take it so serious, which I thought you got
I would say someone needs to work on their reading comprehension. :shock:

Stan
Do you have a formula for that Stan? It might be helpful. :mrgreen:

That's funny right there, I don't care who you are.
What's funnier is that you somehow pulled that "no one in this thread was qualified... " from "...contact Darin Morgan...because no one will post the info you need..."


That's just the kind of environment that has been created here. Starting to get too much like yellowbullet with the pissing and moaning and especially the "holier-than-thou" attitudes that have emerged lately. The whole point of forums is to share information. But lately, it's more of a pissing match here than any sort of info sharing or progression of the sport.


Pretty sad. This was the one place that didn't have that bs until lately. I can understand why I haven't seen a lot of the older regulars posting here anymore. And why people are leaving.

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Re: If 50 are good, what about 55?

Post by Warp Speed » Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:21 am

GARY C wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:31 pm
Warp Speed wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:13 pm
GARY C wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:40 pm


Oddly enough most head work increases flow everywhere and almost always produces more power, It's all about timing the window area with the piston position, if not then we would only need one cam shaft for all engines.
ALMOST always!
I, as some others have also, have seen flow increased, but power does not. How come?

And some flow you don't even bother to measure.......
Care to give a presentage of ones that didn't vs ones that did? Considering the outcome of that vote would it disprove your argument or get you to rethink your position? I doubt it because you are standing on an "always" position from an "almost" stand point!

Is it possible that the flow your not willing to look at could hold the key to what your looking for?

I remember when people didn't bother to look at anything other than exhaust port flow, now most would tell you it they are not concerned with flow.
Percentages don't really matter, it is the fact that it can and does happen!
No, we are quite aware of what flow matters! :wink:
Ya, we haven't been overly concerned about exhaust flow for 20+ years really. You have to remember, very few have the financial and personnel resources that cup teams have. Not that we know everything, because as I say often, no one does. But we have been developing the 2 valve, common plenum, pushrod small block v8 for quite a while. From 23* to 18*, to the architecture we currently have. I think we got a fairly good handle on the basics thats for sure!

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Re: If 50 are good, what about 55?

Post by Warp Speed » Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:34 am

Keith Morganstein wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 6:49 pm
I had to freshen up a set of heads on the strongest running circle track engine in its class. 034 Bowtie heads, heavily angle milled, 2.05” valves and it had 52* seats. This engine beat all others so it must prove 52* seats are better!
Maybe not proof, but definalty a trend that needs to be considered!

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Re: If 50 are good, what about 55?

Post by randy331 » Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:55 am

Warp Speed wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:21 am
You have to remember, very few have the financial and personnel resources that cup teams have.

Maybe you could get me in on one of the dynos you guys use for a few days of engine development ??? :D

Then I could see those fictitious pressure waves for myself !! #-o :roll: :lol:

With the Speed Talk discount of course . :lol: :mrgreen:


Randy

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Re: If 50 are good, what about 55?

Post by Warp Speed » Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:06 am

randy331 wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:55 am
Warp Speed wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:21 am
You have to remember, very few have the financial and personnel resources that cup teams have.

Maybe you could get me in on one of the dynos you guys use for a few days of engine development ??? :D

Then I could see those fictitious pressure waves for myself !! #-o :roll: :lol:

With the Speed Talk discount of course . :lol: :mrgreen:


Randy
If your ever in the neighborhood, give me a shout!

user-30563

Re: If 50 are good, what about 55?

Post by user-30563 » Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:10 am

55º valve jobs are easy! top cut, seat, 3rd cut, blend it to the bottom. done. :)

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Re: If 50 are good, what about 55?

Post by Warp Speed » Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:38 am

portinguy wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:10 am
55º valve jobs are easy! top cut, seat, 3rd cut, blend it to the bottom. done. :)
That says allot! :)

user-30563

Re: If 50 are good, what about 55?

Post by user-30563 » Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:41 am

Warp Speed wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:38 am
portinguy wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:10 am
55º valve jobs are easy! top cut, seat, 3rd cut, blend it to the bottom. done. :)
That says allot! :)
It was a joke, smiley face..

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Re: If 50 are good, what about 55?

Post by Frankshaft » Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:53 am

midnightbluS10 wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:10 am
Frankshaft wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:12 pm
Stan Weiss wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 6:59 pm


I would say someone needs to work on their reading comprehension. :shock:

Stan
Do you have a formula for that Stan? It might be helpful. :mrgreen:

That's funny right there, I don't care who you are.
What's funnier is that you somehow pulled that "no one in this thread was qualified... " from "...contact Darin Morgan...because no one will post the info you need..."


That's just the kind of environment that has been created here. Starting to get too much like yellowbullet with the pissing and moaning and especially the "holier-than-thou" attitudes that have emerged lately. The whole point of forums is to share information. But lately, it's more of a pissing match here than any sort of info sharing or progression of the sport.


Pretty sad. This was the one place that didn't have that bs until lately. I can understand why I haven't seen a lot of the older regulars posting here anymore. And why people are leaving.
The first point, the answer is there is no answer for this. That's the point. I can tell you what Darin Morgan would tell Groberts, stick to the 45 degree seat, and he would say, ok, thanks. And that would be that. As far as "sharing" usually Darin doesn't just say, do this that or the other thing, he gives hints, ideas, trends and highlights some findings from some of his testing, which can be very helpful. Take it for what its worth, try it or don't. Some of the best teachers I had, didn't GIVE me the answer, but hints ideas and thoughts, and then left it up to ME to LEARN. That's what a good teacher does. In this day and age, everyone feels "entitled", just GIVE me the answer, I want it NOW, and that's not a dig to you, so don't take it that way.
Its been said a dozen times in the other thread, and even this one now, that there is NO REAL CUT IN STONE answer its all a comprimise. For me, Groberts is on the borderline, with head and camshaft. If he is going to do additional porting, and a hair more duration, I would do it. If you look at that Hot Rod article, that has been linked 3 or 4 times, the average guy, info like that is all they have. There could be arguments for using the 35 seat, and arguments for using the 50, for THAT combo. He used the "stock" 45 degree seat that came from gm, so, its possible some revised 45 degree seat could have been the best "compromise" The 50 degree profile he used, I didn't think was right, and neither was the 45, but it showed the trend, on how it works exactly OPPOSITE of what everyone thinks, like I have said 20 times on here at least, about low lift flow enhancing valve jobs, and steep seats and top cuts. That probably leaves him even more confused, I bet if he asked the guy doing the tests on that particular ONE test, he wouldn't be able to give a complete answer, because the testing was far from complete. But, it showed how low lift flow hurts tq, but can help the engine hang on past peak, and it showed how reducing it, helped tq and power in the midrange, and then fell off on top, because the engine saw that seat profile as less duration/overlap for the same cam, that was quite small. The real answer, is, you can get "creative" with seat profiles to compliment a given application. The when, the why's and the how's are not exactly clear for every combo.
Last edited by Frankshaft on Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: If 50 are good, what about 55?

Post by Warp Speed » Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:56 am

portinguy wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:41 am
Warp Speed wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:38 am
portinguy wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:10 am
55º valve jobs are easy! top cut, seat, 3rd cut, blend it to the bottom. done. :)
That says allot! :)
It was a joke, smiley face..
Me too..........? Lol :)

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Re: If 50 are good, what about 55?

Post by Warp Speed » Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:14 am

Frankshaft wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:53 am
midnightbluS10 wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:10 am
Frankshaft wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:12 pm


Do you have a formula for that Stan? It might be helpful. :mrgreen:

That's funny right there, I don't care who you are.
What's funnier is that you somehow pulled that "no one in this thread was qualified... " from "...contact Darin Morgan...because no one will post the info you need..."


That's just the kind of environment that has been created here. Starting to get too much like yellowbullet with the pissing and moaning and especially the "holier-than-thou" attitudes that have emerged lately. The whole point of forums is to share information. But lately, it's more of a pissing match here than any sort of info sharing or progression of the sport.


Pretty sad. This was the one place that didn't have that bs until lately. I can understand why I haven't seen a lot of the older regulars posting here anymore. And why people are leaving.
The first point, the answer is there is no answer for this. That's the point. I can tell you what Darin Morgan would tell Groberts, stick to the 45 degree seat, and he would say, ok, thanks. And that would be that. As far as "sharing" usually Darin doesn't just say, do this that or the other thing, he gives hints, ideas, trends and highlights some findings from some of his testing, which can be very helpful. Take it for what its worth, try it or don't. Some of the best teachers I had, didn't GIVE me the answer, but hints ideas and thoughts, and then left it up to ME to LEARN. That's what a good teacher does. In this day and age, everyone feels "entitled", just GIVE me the answer, I want it NOW, and that's not a dig to you, so don't take it that way.
Its been said a dozen times in the other thread, and even this one now, that there is NO REAL CUT IN STONE answer its all a comprimise. For me, Groberts is on the borderline, with head and camshaft. If he is going to do additional porting, and a hair more duration, I would do it. If you look at that Hot Rod article, that has been linked 3 or 4 times, the average guy, info like that is all they have. There could be arguments for using the 35 seat, and arguments for using the 50, for THAT combo. He used the "stock" 45 degree seat that came from gm, so, its possible some revised 45 degree seat could have been the best "compromise" The 50 degree profile he used, I didn't think was right, and neither was the 45, but it showed the trend, on how it works exactly OPPOSITE of what everyone thinks, like I have said 20 times on here at least, about low lift flow enhancing valve jobs, and steep seats and top cuts. That probably leaves him even more confused, I bet if he asked the guy doing the tests on that particular ONE test, he wouldn't be able to give a complete answer, because the testing was far from complete. But, it showed how low lift flow hurts tq, but can help the engine hang on past peak, and it showed how reducing it, helped tq and power in the midrange, and then fell off on top, because the engine saw that seat profile as less duration/overlap for the same cam, that was quite small. The real answer, is, you can get "creative" with seat profiles to compliment a given application. The when, the why's and the how's are not exactly clear for every combo.
That's an awesome post. Both in the technical description and the teaching portion! =D>
I try to drop hints, and the "loose ended comments with no data to prove it" I've been accused of for this very reason!
That, and everything I do is proprietary information, with often times millions invested. Most stuff I actually do comment on, is 10+ year old data, or data you could get by buying a some of our old parts off of eBay and analyzing them.
I am not saying I am some engine God or anything, because I'm really just really a proffesional coat tail rider when it comes down to it. But it's just they way it is. But if I do make a loose ended comment or remark (my sense of humor gets lost throufh the key board sometimes lol) there is typically something to it that is very valid and proven. It may not make sense sometimes, but something is there........Its your job to figure it out.
Or not.............

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Re: If 50 are good, what about 55?

Post by Frankshaft » Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:44 am

Warp Speed wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:14 am
Frankshaft wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:53 am
midnightbluS10 wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:10 am


What's funnier is that you somehow pulled that "no one in this thread was qualified... " from "...contact Darin Morgan...because no one will post the info you need..."


That's just the kind of environment that has been created here. Starting to get too much like yellowbullet with the pissing and moaning and especially the "holier-than-thou" attitudes that have emerged lately. The whole point of forums is to share information. But lately, it's more of a pissing match here than any sort of info sharing or progression of the sport.


Pretty sad. This was the one place that didn't have that bs until lately. I can understand why I haven't seen a lot of the older regulars posting here anymore. And why people are leaving.
The first point, the answer is there is no answer for this. That's the point. I can tell you what Darin Morgan would tell Groberts, stick to the 45 degree seat, and he would say, ok, thanks. And that would be that. As far as "sharing" usually Darin doesn't just say, do this that or the other thing, he gives hints, ideas, trends and highlights some findings from some of his testing, which can be very helpful. Take it for what its worth, try it or don't. Some of the best teachers I had, didn't GIVE me the answer, but hints ideas and thoughts, and then left it up to ME to LEARN. That's what a good teacher does. In this day and age, everyone feels "entitled", just GIVE me the answer, I want it NOW, and that's not a dig to you, so don't take it that way.
Its been said a dozen times in the other thread, and even this one now, that there is NO REAL CUT IN STONE answer its all a comprimise. For me, Groberts is on the borderline, with head and camshaft. If he is going to do additional porting, and a hair more duration, I would do it. If you look at that Hot Rod article, that has been linked 3 or 4 times, the average guy, info like that is all they have. There could be arguments for using the 35 seat, and arguments for using the 50, for THAT combo. He used the "stock" 45 degree seat that came from gm, so, its possible some revised 45 degree seat could have been the best "compromise" The 50 degree profile he used, I didn't think was right, and neither was the 45, but it showed the trend, on how it works exactly OPPOSITE of what everyone thinks, like I have said 20 times on here at least, about low lift flow enhancing valve jobs, and steep seats and top cuts. That probably leaves him even more confused, I bet if he asked the guy doing the tests on that particular ONE test, he wouldn't be able to give a complete answer, because the testing was far from complete. But, it showed how low lift flow hurts tq, but can help the engine hang on past peak, and it showed how reducing it, helped tq and power in the midrange, and then fell off on top, because the engine saw that seat profile as less duration/overlap for the same cam, that was quite small. The real answer, is, you can get "creative" with seat profiles to compliment a given application. The when, the why's and the how's are not exactly clear for every combo.
That's an awesome post. Both in the technical description and the teaching portion! =D>
I try to drop hints, and the "loose ended comments with no data to prove it" I've been accused of for this very reason!
That, and everything I do is proprietary information, with often times millions invested. Most stuff I actually do comment on, is 10+ year old data, or data you could get by buying a some of our old parts off of eBay and analyzing them.
I am not saying I am some engine God or anything, because I'm really just really a proffesional coat tail rider when it comes down to it. But it's just they way it is. But if I do make a loose ended comment or remark (my sense of humor gets lost throufh the key board sometimes lol) there is typically something to it that is very valid and proven. It may not make sense sometimes, but something is there........Its your job to figure it out.
Or not.............
I understand exactly why you reply the way you do, and most don't get that, but to discount you because you don't spill the beans on certain things, is ridiculous. I can understand why someone on here, who has no clue who I am, or what I do, what I work on or what I have done, can come to that conclusion about me. I get that, and am ok with it. I have thick skin, I am not a push over, and I won't bow down, and I WILL speak my mind, whether someone likes it or not. Sometimes I insert foot into mouth, won't deny it.

Also, I still see to this day, guys quoting the Grump, from his book, that he wrote in 1982!! The reason he did that book, he wasn't giving away anything he was working on at the time, they were WAY past that, or stuff that Smokey Yunik wrote about, even more outdated. I recently had a Pontiac guy that I did some work for. I finally had to tell him, STOP quoting that STUPID BOOK. Jesus. All he did was argue with me about things in the book. I said, well, hey, then maybe have the guy that wrote the book do it!! I said, look when the book was written, good god man. That was 30 years ago!! Things have changed.

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Re: If 50 are good, what about 55?

Post by DrillDawg » Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:06 pm

I wonder what people like Bob Mullins and Brownfield would think about air flow advancements of today compared to what they thought was the trick of the day in their hay day.
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