Question for anybody who desires to answer ?

[GARY C]

I wonder, out of the cam companies mentioned, who has more race wins, world records and championships?
Asking for a friend...........

Is NASCAR forced to run Comp Cams or a specific brand like they are other products, who pays more contingency money? I bet Holly has has more race wins, world records and championships but it because their carb or FI is better than others?

Out of the people I know that use Bullet, Comp, Jones and Howards there is little to no power difference but they also would not let them spec their cams.

[Warp Speed]

Warpspeed, i would sure think it would be Comp. Cams ??? Mark

Yep, the correct answer would be the two that didn't ask for flow numbers!

[Warp Speed]

I wonder, out of the cam companies mentioned, who has more race wins, world records and championships?
Asking for a friend...........

Is NASCAR forced to run Comp Cams or a specific brand like they are other products, who pays more contingency money? I bet Holly has has more race wins, world records and championships but it because their carb or FI is better than others?

Out of the people I know that use Bullet, Comp, Jones and Howards there is little to no power difference but they also would not let them spec their cams.

The only brand we are "forced to run" would be the Holley TB and the McLaren ECU........for obvious reasons.
Ya, the Holley design has proven superior over the years.
Should we be running AFBs or Predators?!? Lol

[Frankshaft]

I wonder, out of the cam companies mentioned, who has more race wins, world records and championships?
Asking for a friend...........

Is NASCAR forced to run Comp Cams or a specific brand like they are other products, who pays more contingency money? I bet Holly has has more race wins, world records and championships but it because their carb or FI is better than others?

Out of the people I know that use Bullet, Comp, Jones and Howards there is little to no power difference but they also would not let them spec their cams.

The bottom line, maybe because there isn't much difference between them? I highlighted a switch from one brand to another, with for all practical purposes, the same specs, the dyno sheets looked like you made a copy of the 1st one. The car ran exactly the same. Like Randy331 said, why does everyone think there is so much voodoo and magic in cams? Not taking anything away from a guy like Mike Jones. I have said it before, I have never purchased a cam from him, but certainly wouldn't be opposed to it. I just end up with the desired results from the, Erson, Bullet, LSM, once in awhile Howards, and once in awhile Cam motion. By the way, Cam motion stuff makes power. The main reason for the use of the brands I use, convienance. I can order a custom grind from Erson, on say Tuesday. They will tell me I should see it the following Wednesday. It usually shows up Friday of the same week. During the busiest time of the season too. How can you beat that? As far as flow numbers, What do you do when you have a set of heads that comes with a flow sheet that says they flow 336 at .800. You flow them and they really only flow 304 at .700, and dive at .800? These heads came from a big name manufacturer. This isn't uncommon. It happens all the time. So, the guy who buys these heads, tells Jones the 336 number, and he says, oh yep, I will do this lobe, with this duration and lobe sep, and valve lift. Customer says sweet. This manufacturer will ADEMANTLY say that's what they flow and the guy who tested them at 304 at .700 and they nose dive beyond that did it wrong and trust us, our numbers are correct. Who is right? Does the guy have the right cam? I would assume for the guys using flow numbers as part of the process to select or come up with a lobe, it would be different no? Again, if you don't believe there is a lot of bushittery with flow numbers and dyno numbers out there, you need to quit sniffing the glue.

[swampbuggy]

Hey warp speed I've been wondering forever about decals and stickers on the race cars versus what's actually in the motor would you set a straight on that if you are at Liberty to say. Mark H

[CamKing]

Warpspeed, i would sure think it would be Comp. Cams ??? Mark

Yep, the correct answer would be the two that didn't ask for flow numbers!

Not if you are looking at wins and championships per cams produced.
Comp, wouldn't even be in the top 3.

The other issue with Comp is, many of their NASCAR wins are with cams that were designed by someone else, and Comp just ground them.
If Hendrick sends the lobe designs to Comp, calls out all the specs on the cam, and Comp just supplies the finished cam, is it really a Comp cam?
When I was working with one of the Dodge teams, the cams that Comp designed, were not only down on power to my designs, but also to another company as well.

[Warp Speed]

Warpspeed, i would sure think it would be Comp. Cams ??? Mark

Yep, the correct answer would be the two that didn't ask for flow numbers!

Not if you are looking at wins and championships per cams produced.
Comp, wouldn't even be in the top 3.

The other issue with Comp is, many of their NASCAR wins are with cams that were designed by someone else, and Comp just ground them.
If Hendrick sends the lobe designs to Comp, calls out all the specs on the cam, and Comp just supplies the finished cam, is it really a Comp cam?
When I was working with one of the Dodge teams, the cams that Comp designed, were not only down on power to my designs, but also to another company as well.

There we obviously have differing opinions. I'm purely pointing out that fact flow numbers aren't where it's at!
Again, IMO

[CamKing]

Hey warp speed I've been wondering forever about decals and stickers on the race cars versus what's actually in the motor would you set a straight on that if you are at Liberty to say. Mark H

The front quarter panels are owned by NASCAR, and those decals are "Series Sponsors". If you can write a big enough check to NASCAR, you can have your decal on the car. They have nothing to do, with what's actually in the car.
You also have team sponsor decals. I had a customer in one of the NASCAR classes, that was sponsored by Lunati. He used the money from Lunati, to pay me to do the cam development that won him the championship. It was a win for everyone. The team won the championship. I got paid well, to do development for a class I didn't have a lot of experience in. Lunati got to advertise that they powered the champion.
Decals don't tell you anything about what's in the car. In IndyCar, There were a few years, where I had around 29 of 33 cars in the Indy 500, running my cams. Yet, only 2 or 3 of them were running my decals.

It's basically the same in most other racing series.
In Dirt Latemodels, Scott Bloomquist ran my cams for years, and won a ton of races, and Championships. He had a big Comp Cams decal on the car, and Comp would supply him with the rest of the valvetrain. Comp knew he was running my cams, so they would put out full page ads, and say Scott was running their valvetrain parts. The ad would mention their cams, but just let the reader assume he was running one.

Same in Sprint Cars. In the Picture below, my decal is in red, right below the #22 on the wing, and there's a Crane Cams decal down by the drivers feet.

[CamKing]

Yep, the correct answer would be the two that didn't ask for flow numbers!

Not if you are looking at wins and championships per cams produced.
Comp, wouldn't even be in the top 3.

The other issue with Comp is, many of their NASCAR wins are with cams that were designed by someone else, and Comp just ground them.
If Hendrick sends the lobe designs to Comp, calls out all the specs on the cam, and Comp just supplies the finished cam, is it really a Comp cam?
When I was working with one of the Dodge teams, the cams that Comp designed, were not only down on power to my designs, but also to another company as well.

There we obviously have differing opinions. I'm purely pointing out that fact flow numbers aren't where it's at!
Again, IMO

Flow numbers are just a part of the equation. Ferrari doesn't use them, and never has. They only look at the physical measurements of the port. This is great, but most people can't give you those exact measurements. If you have a minimum cross-sectional area, you can calculate the theoretical flow of that area. If you have port flow CFM, you can calculate the theoretical minimum cross-sectional area for that flow, at each valve lift. Neither one, is 100% accurate.

[GARY C]

I wonder, out of the cam companies mentioned, who has more race wins, world records and championships?
Asking for a friend...........

Is NASCAR forced to run Comp Cams or a specific brand like they are other products, who pays more contingency money? I bet Holly has has more race wins, world records and championships but it because their carb or FI is better than others?

Out of the people I know that use Bullet, Comp, Jones and Howards there is little to no power difference but they also would not let them spec their cams.

The bottom line, maybe because there isn't much difference between them? I highlighted a switch from one brand to another, with for all practical purposes, the same specs, the dyno sheets looked like you made a copy of the 1st one. The car ran exactly the same. Like Randy331 said, why does everyone think there is so much voodoo and magic in cams? Not taking anything away from a guy like Mike Jones. I have said it before, I have never purchased a cam from him, but certainly wouldn't be opposed to it. I just end up with the desired results from the, Erson, Bullet, LSM, once in awhile Howards, and once in awhile Cam motion. By the way, Cam motion stuff makes power. The main reason for the use of the brands I use, convienance. I can order a custom grind from Erson, on say Tuesday. They will tell me I should see it the following Wednesday. It usually shows up Friday of the same week. During the busiest time of the season too. How can you beat that? As far as flow numbers, What do you do when you have a set of heads that comes with a flow sheet that says they flow 336 at .800. You flow them and they really only flow 304 at .700, and dive at .800? These heads came from a big name manufacturer. This isn't uncommon. It happens all the time. So, the guy who buys these heads, tells Jones the 336 number, and he says, oh yep, I will do this lobe, with this duration and lobe sep, and valve lift. Customer says sweet. This manufacturer will ADEMANTLY say that's what they flow and the guy who tested them at 304 at .700 and they nose dive beyond that did it wrong and trust us, our numbers are correct. Who is right? Does the guy have the right cam? I would assume for the guys using flow numbers as part of the process to select or come up with a lobe, it would be different no? Again, if you don't believe there is a lot of bushittery with flow numbers and dyno numbers out there, you need to quit sniffing the glue.

Most heads don't flow what the mnf says within the lift range but I have never seen them that far out on lift, so are you confirming that the correct flow numbers will give you an exact cam? If the cam needs to be changed a few degrees due to a change in flow numbers then you are proving Randy wrong.
How will giving the cam grinder only sq in tell him if the head takes a dive at .800 or not?
It seems to me if you have valve size, valve angle, head size and head flow from .025 up you would be more likely to give the customer the cam they need for their application.
It seems that you guys that work on what you know and have found a method that works for a given combo is the only answer.

[Warp Speed]

.025 and up says it all Gary.............

[user-17438]

Is NASCAR forced to run Comp Cams or a specific brand like they are other products, who pays more contingency money? I bet Holly has has more race wins, world records and championships but it because their carb or FI is better than others?

Out of the people I know that use Bullet, Comp, Jones and Howards there is little to no power difference but they also would not let them spec their cams.

The bottom line, maybe because there isn't much difference between them? I highlighted a switch from one brand to another, with for all practical purposes, the same specs, the dyno sheets looked like you made a copy of the 1st one. The car ran exactly the same. Like Randy331 said, why does everyone think there is so much voodoo and magic in cams? Not taking anything away from a guy like Mike Jones. I have said it before, I have never purchased a cam from him, but certainly wouldn't be opposed to it. I just end up with the desired results from the, Erson, Bullet, LSM, once in awhile Howards, and once in awhile Cam motion. By the way, Cam motion stuff makes power. The main reason for the use of the brands I use, convienance. I can order a custom grind from Erson, on say Tuesday. They will tell me I should see it the following Wednesday. It usually shows up Friday of the same week. During the busiest time of the season too. How can you beat that? As far as flow numbers, What do you do when you have a set of heads that comes with a flow sheet that says they flow 336 at .800. You flow them and they really only flow 304 at .700, and dive at .800? These heads came from a big name manufacturer. This isn't uncommon. It happens all the time. So, the guy who buys these heads, tells Jones the 336 number, and he says, oh yep, I will do this lobe, with this duration and lobe sep, and valve lift. Customer says sweet. This manufacturer will ADEMANTLY say that's what they flow and the guy who tested them at 304 at .700 and they nose dive beyond that did it wrong and trust us, our numbers are correct. Who is right? Does the guy have the right cam? I would assume for the guys using flow numbers as part of the process to select or come up with a lobe, it would be different no? Again, if you don't believe there is a lot of bushittery with flow numbers and dyno numbers out there, you need to quit sniffing the glue.

Most heads don't flow what the mnf says within the lift range but I have never seen them that far out on lift, so are you confirming that the correct flow numbers will give you an exact cam? If the cam needs to be changed a few degrees due to a change in flow numbers then you are proving Randy wrong.
How will giving the cam grinder only sq in tell him if the head takes a dive at .800 or not?
It seems to me if you have valve size, valve angle, head size and head flow from .025 up you would be more likely to give the customer the cam they need for their application.
It seems that you guys that work on what you know and have found a method that works for a given combo is the only answer.

What works for me. My cam grinders know my level of builds, and know I did my job to hit the target RPM i ask for, their job for me is to design or find me a lobe that will work in the lift range i want. If the CSA is enough and the Shape is right, The heads will flow. and you will make the rpm target.

I most often spec my own cam, and achieve what i want. some times i call a cam guy because i have huge lift and want more rpm, but dont want to give up power. Some lobes will destroy springs during the burnout if you chose the wrong one. example a lobe designed for a 1.8 rocker and you have a 2.30. now that is extreme and wouldnt happen, but some people just look for the most lift and the quickest ramp with no understanding of the opening or closing side, what type of lifter its designed for.

I think it is more important to tell them the Valvetrain parts and weights you are using VS Flow numbers.

[hoffman900]

Warpspeed, i would sure think it would be Comp. Cams ??? Mark

Yep, the correct answer would be the two that didn't ask for flow numbers!

Not if you are looking at wins and championships per cams produced.
Comp, wouldn't even be in the top 3.

The other issue with Comp is, many of their NASCAR wins are with cams that were designed by someone else, and Comp just ground them.
If Hendrick sends the lobe designs to Comp, calls out all the specs on the cam, and Comp just supplies the finished cam, is it really a Comp cam?
When I was working with one of the Dodge teams, the cams that Comp designed, were not only down on power to my designs, but also to another company as well.

Isn’t this how Dynocams and and times, Megacycle have had their involvement in NASCAR? Just basically grinding cams designed in house by a team? There was (is?) another company in Michigan who I believe did the same.

Looking on EBay over the years, it seems most modernish NASCAR cams are Comp, Crane, and Custom Camshaft Company. I know there are in house designs around, but not sure if they ever floated around to be purchased for the public. I figure they are used up and then recycled.

The brands are just that, brands - a name on the box. I’d be more interested to know who the designer was/is, as they sometimes move around and take their “design fingerprint” with them.

I’d be shocked to learn if the engine building powerhouses (TRD, Hendricks, Roush-Yates, ECR, etc) didn’t do almost all their design work in house now.

[GARY C]

Yep, the correct answer would be the two that didn't ask for flow numbers!

Not if you are looking at wins and championships per cams produced.
Comp, wouldn't even be in the top 3.

The other issue with Comp is, many of their NASCAR wins are with cams that were designed by someone else, and Comp just ground them.
If Hendrick sends the lobe designs to Comp, calls out all the specs on the cam, and Comp just supplies the finished cam, is it really a Comp cam?
When I was working with one of the Dodge teams, the cams that Comp designed, were not only down on power to my designs, but also to another company as well.

Isn’t this how Dynocams and and times, Megacycle have had their involvement in NASCAR? Just basically grinding cams designed in house by a team? There was (is?) another company in Michigan who I believe did the same.

Looking on EBay over the years, it seems most modernish NASCAR cams are Comp, Crane, and Custom Camshaft Company. I know there are in house designs around, but not sure if they ever floated around to be purchased for the public. I figure they are used up and then recycled.

The brands are just that, brands - a name on the box. I’d be more interested to know who the designer was/is, as they sometimes move around and take their “design fingerprint” with them.

I’d be shocked to learn if the engine building powerhouses (TRD, Hendricks, Roush-Yates, ECR, etc) didn’t do almost all their design work in house now.

When you figure all they do is 1 engine week after week year after year the cam is probably not that hard to nail down. It would be interesting to see what would happen if they had to run a different unknown combo every year.

[hoffman900]

They would be interested from a R&D standpoint, plus the rules seem to change year to year in terms of restrictor / tapered spacer size, or a chassis rule will effect how well it handles and the terminal velocity at the end of the straight. Even if it’s not horsepower, you would be interested in fuel mileage as well.

Think about, why does anyone need to be a lobe designer for the typical pushrod engine? There are tens of thousands of lobes already out there, especially for the common tappet / roller sizes. Most builders stick with only but a couple lobe families from a particular brand. I bet for most cam manufacturers, only a small percent of their entire lobe design catalog accounts for the majority of the sales.