RevTheory wrote: ↑Mon May 28, 2018 9:37 am
I can't tell you how many times I've had the lobe list up from Bullet, Comp and Howard's squabbling in my mind over 2* at .200 and a couple of thousands of lobe lift and I'm thinking, "pick one, dammit!"
I do call up and try to get deeper than the front desk to make sure I'm not doing something stupid though. I had one instance where I was speccing a cam for a rock-crawler and although the lobe looked good on paper, the guy at Bullet (can't remember his name now) steered me right away from that particular lobe family. He was kind enough to save me from myself.
The lobe designers would be best because they know what application that family was designed for, any special caveats in terms of the design, and how it will do dynamically. Anyone else is just throwing darts at a catalog unless they have a lot of experience with that particular lobe family.
That's the problem though, there are tons of FT or roller lobe designs at say 270* @ .050", but they won't all work the same, not even close.
RevTheory wrote: ↑Mon May 28, 2018 9:37 am
I can't tell you how many times I've had the lobe list up from Bullet, Comp and Howard's squabbling in my mind over 2* at .200 and a couple of thousands of lobe lift and I'm thinking, "pick one, dammit!"
I do call up and try to get deeper than the front desk to make sure I'm not doing something stupid though. I had one instance where I was speccing a cam for a rock-crawler and although the lobe looked good on paper, the guy at Bullet (can't remember his name now) steered me right away from that particular lobe family. He was kind enough to save me from myself.
The lobe designers would be best because they know what application that family was designed for, any special caveats in terms of the design, and how it will do dynamically. Anyone else is just throwing darts at a catalog unless they have a lot of experience with that particular lobe family.
That's the problem though, there are tons of FT or roller lobe designs at say 270* @ .050", but they won't all work the same, not even close.
That`s why I`m skeptical on "magical" durations numbers...
What does it really means, if a "program" says it needs 236@.050 to meet your goals???
One can came with a dozen lobes designs with 236@.050, that wiil make a huge more impact, on engine performance by it´s design,than a couple degrees here/there.
Plenty of good discussion on these lobes. I have only ever built street/ strip and standard rebuilt type engines. Knowing that the follower is using nearly all of its diameter. Lifter placement on the lobe becomes critical. How is this checked? Guys that used to build race clevelands using factory blocks must have a process for checking this. I don't want the expense of having lifter bores bushed. If I have to do this I may as well use a roller as it will be cheaper. Not sure any engine shops in Nth. Queensland could even do this type of job. I worked in an engine machine shop years ago and we were never asked about this task. Any clues for a back harder with the skills go check a stock block for lifter bore spacing/alignment? Only thing that comes to mind is to buy the cam, install it and blue all the lifter bases and check contact patterns. Any other ideas that don't require me to buy a cam that I may not be able to use? Are production tolerances good on stock clevelands?
Evan,
John Barbagello at JB automotive at AYR Australian pro stock champion and professional engine builder would do lifter bushings, the biggest problem we have using old cast blocks the lifter bores are all pretty bad from the factory no matter what brand of OEM.
Steve,
Pretty much a case of wishful thinking on my part.I have a few blocks in the shed. I might try checking lifter bore spacings and see if they are consistent. I know that I have never had any factory v8 block that had equal and parallel decks. I am guessing the the factory would have used a gang boring Machine to do the lifter bores, so distances should be fixed and consistent. Fore and aft placement and lateral placement could be anywhere. If the follower contacts to .020 of its edge, I might get away with it, any less than this, probably not. I didn't think about JB. Still, lifter bushing is overkill for this build. I am only shooting for 450 Hp. Trying to get the most usable power in the rev range that it sees most often, hence the low duration and high lift. I already have a Crane Blue Racer that I was given. It's not too bad by EAPro but I tend to get greedy. These Howard's grinds appeal but might not be worth the effort for the gains. I'll see what Howard's say and report findings. One last question, how close to the edge of the lifter do Chevs and Holdens run on common lobe families?
Forget Howards, if youre in Australia they'll send you to deal with Fabre which is their exclusive dealer here. They are expensive on most things.
Here in SEQ Performance Wholesale will order you a custom comp for cheaper. You pick out the core you want, the lobes you want and the LSA, advance etc out of the comp master lobe list and they'll have it made for you..
Summit racing does the same but the price works out the same so better to go local for me...
Paulzig,
This opens a whole new can of worms. I might have to start a new thread and ask for cam specs for my combination. Bound to just get more confused as there have been numerous threads on SBC cam selection with not much agreement, lol.There were a couple of these cams on Ebay, that got me interested in the first place, they were pricey though. I think a hydraulic roller would be a better option as I`ll have to build the valve train the same anyway with those lobes and I won`t have to worry about wiping out lobes on run in. Back to the drawing board. Thanks for all the replies.
ozyfordman wrote: ↑Mon May 28, 2018 4:46 pm
Steve,
Pretty much a case of wishful thinking on my part.I have a few blocks in the shed. I might try checking lifter bore spacings and see if they are consistent. I know that I have never had any factory v8 block that had equal and parallel decks. I am guessing the the factory would have used a gang boring Machine to do the lifter bores, so distances should be fixed and consistent. Fore and aft placement and lateral placement could be anywhere. If the follower contacts to .020 of its edge, I might get away with it, any less than this, probably not. I didn't think about JB. Still, lifter bushing is overkill for this build. I am only shooting for 450 Hp. Trying to get the most usable power in the rev range that it sees most often, hence the low duration and high lift. I already have a Crane Blue Racer that I was given. It's not too bad by EAPro but I tend to get greedy. These Howard's grinds appeal but might not be worth the effort for the gains. I'll see what Howard's say and report findings. One last question, how close to the edge of the lifter do Chevs and Holdens run on common lobe families?
Harold shared he kept them to .017” from the edge at their closes on the shelf stuff. The flat tappet NASCAR crowd would have pushed them closer, but you can bet the lifter bores were right where they needed to be for that.
Hysteric,
Never said the TQs from an XC were 'the pick of the litter'. The OP is in Australia, & the only cars here that used TQs in any sort of volume were XC Falcons & [ I think ] the XD Falcon. So if the OP wanted to use a TQ [ a great idea ], he should be able to find one second hand. These are 9000 series TQs, with more pollution crap & leaner settings than the earlier 6000 series. The only Aussie car to get a 6000 series TQ was the veeeeeery rare Valiant 340, it used the #6394 TQ. Both types can be modified to provide great performance & economy.
I thought they came out on a few cars but i'm not to clued up on the ford stuff.
I've got a stack of TQ's that i bought of Hume Performance when they got out of doing them and so if im going to spent time on one id like to start with the best model.
hoffman900 wrote: ↑Mon May 28, 2018 6:22 am
He did and use to post here as “dacaman”. They both worked (Harold remotely) at Custom Camshaft Company (Arrington Performance) and Howards bought everything, including the Landis. You can find the CCC NASCAR stuff on eBay. I’ve been half tempted to buy one to analyze it to see how they were designed
Got a reply from Howard's Cams."we never supply lift tables!" They did say that they don't edge load in most cases and blocks don't require lifter bushing in most cases. Not bad news but not good news either.
Thanks for the tip on the .017" from the edge. I'll mock up a new Crane cam I have and check the contact pattern with bearing blue unless anyone has a better idea. Any word on how close other makes run their lobes to the lifter edge? This is more to give me an idea of production tolerances than anything.
Thanks to those who have contributed so far.
Evan
hoffman900 wrote: ↑Mon May 28, 2018 6:22 am
He did and use to post here as “dacaman”. They both worked (Harold remotely) at Custom Camshaft Company (Arrington Performance) and Howards bought everything, including the Landis. You can find the CCC NASCAR stuff on eBay. I’ve been half tempted to buy one to analyze it to see how they were designed
Well dang it, you just pushed me over the edge of being curious enough to run it over work's Cam Pro Plus.
Let us know what you find!
ozyfordman wrote: ↑Tue May 29, 2018 2:43 pm
Got a reply from Howard's Cams."we never supply lift tables!" They did say that they don't edge load in most cases and blocks don't require lifter bushing in most cases. Not bad news but not good news either.
Thanks for the tip on the .017" from the edge. I'll mock up a new Crane cam I have and check the contact pattern with bearing blue unless anyone has a better idea. Any word on how close other makes run their lobes to the lifter edge? This is more to give me an idea of production tolerances than anything.
Thanks to those who have contributed so far.
Evan
Just a fyi, no one is going to give you the lift tables. The only way to really reverse engineer a cam is with an Adcole, and even then you're likely just better off designing it from scratch. Lots of outfits out there who grind cams, but their catalogs are all copies of other people's lobes, like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5T2eerPtkg&t=51s
Copying doesn't capture everything, despite what's said
Guys,
I got a good deal on the 236/240 SFT on Ebay. Worst that can happen is it runs off the lobe when I check it in the block. If that happens I will sell it and stick the Crane in instead. Ill keep you posted on results but will take a while until delivered and checked, maybe 3 weeks. Howards recommended the #98636 springs but I will chase up some beehives/conicals to keep pressures down and hopefully control harmonics.
