afr 195 or 210 ?

[Frankshaft]

If you have your heart set of afr's, then I would choose the 210's. You won't be able to tell the difference on bottom end, seat of the pants, and the 210's will make more horsepower. And, if you ever want to upgrade in future, you have a bigger head. For a 400 inch deal, there is ZERO question. The 210 is a no brainer. Especially since your using a dual plane intake. There is a trick with the intakes that I may share, with the air gap intakes, that will make 10+ more horsepower, with no loss in bottom end. The other thing most guys don't think about, simple logic and common sense, especially a 400 sbc, street cars with real street tires, especially with a 406 sbc, have serious traction problems, and any loss of "low end" which will be below 3000 rpm, is useless anyhow. That part of the power band is literally un important.

[cv67]

210 comp ports solid roller single plane. That 400 has enough torque to get you moving . I dont buy the small head small cam thing getting it done at 6800

[Warp Speed]

If you have your heart set of afr's, then I would choose the 210's. You won't be able to tell the difference on bottom end, seat of the pants, and the 210's will make more horsepower. And, if you ever want to upgrade in future, you have a bigger head. For a 400 inch deal, there is ZERO question. The 210 is a no brainer. Especially since your using a dual plane intake. There is a trick with the intakes that I may share, with the air gap intakes, that will make 10+ more horsepower, with no loss in bottom end. The other thing most guys don't think about, simple logic and common sense, especially a 400 sbc, street cars with real street tires, especially with a 406 sbc, have serious traction problems, and any loss of "low end" which will be below 3000 rpm, is useless anyhow. That part of the power band is literally un important.

THIS^^^^^^^ IMO

[groberts101]

If you have your heart set of afr's, then I would choose the 210's. You won't be able to tell the difference on bottom end, seat of the pants, and the 210's will make more horsepower. And, if you ever want to upgrade in future, you have a bigger head. For a 400 inch deal, there is ZERO question. The 210 is a no brainer. Especially since your using a dual plane intake. There is a trick with the intakes that I may share, with the air gap intakes, that will make 10+ more horsepower, with no loss in bottom end. The other thing most guys don't think about, simple logic and common sense, especially a 400 sbc, street cars with real street tires, especially with a 406 sbc, have serious traction problems, and any loss of "low end" which will be below 3000 rpm, is useless anyhow. That part of the power band is literally un important.

On a more dedicated race or hotter street/strip duty car? no doubt. But in that same token, I doubt you'll find many true street guys that will not want more torque available under peak. What you're talking about is pure traction limited "mat it and go" ET or bracket racing and doesn't necessarily always apply to people who know how to roll into the throttle to control wheel spin before giving it all the nuts. Not to mention ton's of really decent cheater slicks running around the "street cars" these days too.

And there are also many cars(engine/gear combo's) which will be faster and more exciting to drive when keeping the rpm up while the tires fight for traction. So some small amount of spinnin' can still mean winnin'. Plus, if it's a daily driver?.. who doesn't like to feel like they have 700 ft'lbs of available torque on tap(even if it's only 450) while barely cracking the throttle. Transient throttle response generally improves with smaller head too.

But.. I do fully agree with added growing room from the 210's for when the shiny new has worn off and you decide to up the ante later on. Probably about 8-10 average numbers difference below the torque peak between those 2 anyways. All depends on what and where you want to maximize average power production, is all. And only the OP can decide what he truly wants to achieve here.

[RevTheory]

I'm with you, Greg. I love having to feather back and drift a little on a hard upshift. For me, that's the whole point of having a hot street car.

Edit: I'd probably cam it ~232/236 on a 107 LSA and buy some new tires. Obviously, that's my own personal opinion and we all know what they say about those

[Frankshaft]

Lol. How do you think the 210 vs 195 acts? You really think the 210 is going to bog off idle? lol. You literally wouldn't be able to tell the difference bottom end, regardless the rpm, part throttle, full throttle, rolling into or mashing the gas. MAYBE on a dyno below 3500 the 195's make more tq, but it won't be by much, 2, who builds something like this and uses a drum tight converter? This is a 4spd car, making the bottom end even less important. Sometimes I wonder if any of you guys actually have or had a performance street car.

[RevTheory]

Respectfully, I have the opposite opinion with a 4-speed where you don't have the luxury of being able to lean against the convertor.

[groberts101]

Lol. How do you think the 210 vs 195 acts? You really think the 210 is going to bog off idle? lol. You literally wouldn't be able to tell the difference bottom end, regardless the rpm, part throttle, full throttle, rolling into or mashing the gas. MAYBE on a dyno below 3500 the 195's make more tq, but it won't be by much, 2, who builds something like this and uses a drum tight converter? This is a 4spd car, making the bottom end even less important. Sometimes I wonder if any of you guys actually have or had a performance street car.

LOL.. shouldv'e figured to never disagree with a pro. It's always twisted from one extreme to another around here too. It's a STREET CAR.. so TONS of grey area in between and boils down to driving style and personal preference. Usually always better to modulate the throttle because the tire gets hit too hard.. than slip the clutch to stay up in the cam/inductions sweet spot.

As for knowledge?.. I've had many engines under a wrench and started earlier than most doing this stuff because of my uncle's having them and doing it for a living back in the 70's. The embargo's fueled cheap prices on many elite OEM parts and there was tons of pulled engines and parts swappery going on back then because of it. The more hardcore guys with a decent job were in heaven. And then surrounded by them through other family and friends because gear heads tend to gather up like lice. And on top of that, I tuned many for cash, mainly because I was given the opportunity since my "junk" always ran so well for what it was and dedicated street racers generally talk far more about "tips and tricks" than many race track guys. Also quickly learned that "pro's making money on an hourly basis" had much more limited time, entirely different standards, and almost completely opposite levels of patience than I did when it came to working on my stuff.

So yeah.. there are many people out there who can tell even the slightest differences in transient throttle response(at least I would hope so if you ever actually tune any of your shit off a dyno at all) and 3-4 ft/lbs of torque. Gaining average power is where it's really at for a street car. Being a pessimistic cynic sure helps avoid the dreaded placebo affect as well. Just keep working on it till it becomes so obvious that any possible gains can't be dismissed as placebo affect induced illusion's anymore. The 60', ET, or cash grab after the stripe tells the final tale if you're a decent driver and all the rest is mainly personal preference or potentially bandaiding towards the the weight, chassis or gearing.

Not to mention not everyone leaves off the clutch at 4,000 rpm(how the hell will that work out if your already traction limited and worried about adding too much torque off idle?).. or never drives at part throttle under 3,500 rpm?(street car?).. and maybe there are some people who care for every tiny bit of "not much" they can possibly find. In the end.. peoiple generally just push their own standards on others and "not worth it".. doesn't mean squat to me if I prefer to do the extra work to get every last single horsepower or ft/lb out of any particular combination of parts. I try hard to think subjectively rather than maintaining a purely objective viewpoint. Because the driving experience of ANY street car is purely a subjective experience. And THAT.. was my entire point in the above reply.

[user-30257]

Look at a 270 cc ls7 head.. it must be a bitch to drive based on your theory. Yet gm seemed to make it work. Maybe your experience is based upon inexperienced carb tuning.

[Frankshaft]

Groberts,Your right, I am wrong. OP, get the 195's. You will swear its a 632, it will make so much tq in an rpm range you will never use, it will be awesome. And then be down 25+ hp above 5000. Thumbs Up. have fun, and drive safe.

[user-30257]

Groberts,Your right, I am wrong. OP, get the 195's. You will swear its a 632, it will make so much tq in an rpm range you will never use, it will be awesome. And then be down 25+ hp above 5000. Thumbs Up. have fun, and drive safe.

LMAO

[Roundybout]

On a purely street hot rod, I personally would rather concentrate on the first 3000RPM rather than the last 3000RPM. Most of the time is spent in that RPM range so it makes sense to me to concentrate getting off idle/part throttle response good.

That being sad I'd go with the 210s. Especially with 400ci+. I doubt you'd notice the difference between the two on a street ride.

[user-30257]

On a purely street hot rod, I personally would rather concentrate on the first 3000RPM rather than the last 3000RPM. Most of the time is spent in that RPM range so it makes sense to me to concentrate getting off idle/part throttle response good.

That being sad I'd go with the 210s. Especially with 400ci+. I doubt you'd notice the difference between the two on a street ride.

But at part throttle you are using what? 40lbft to cruise at 55.. why do you need to make 8000lb? Do you guys really put it in 4th and just boot it from there? Or do you down shift?

[RevTheory]

But at part throttle you are using what? 40lbft to cruise at 55.. why do you need to make 8000lb? Do you guys really put it in 4th and just boot it from there? Or do you down shift?

I think you're exaggerating a little here. I think what we're saying is that on a hot street/cruise deal like this is, it's nice to be able to lay pretty deep into the throttle at say 2,700 rpm and have it respond like a beast without having to sidestep the clutch.

At least I do but we all have our own preferences. Besides, he's probably right on the fence with a 406 so he could throw a dart at the two and not really be wrong.

[groberts101]

Groberts,Your right, I am wrong. OP, get the 195's. You will swear its a 632, it will make so much tq in an rpm range you will never use, it will be awesome. And then be down 25+ hp above 5000. Thumbs Up. have fun, and drive safe.

my gawd.. some people's ego's are so fragile.

No, you're right.. I didn't fully understand how good those bigger heads actually were to only give up an unnoticeable amount of torque where a street engine spends most of its life.. all the while still gaining 25+ horsepower up where it rarely goes. I'm sure it will be much more pleasurable to drive from stoplight to stoplight and not one iota of difference. Hopefully he has good brakes cause it's gonna be a damned rocketship with them bigger ports!

But.. I do fully agree with added growing room from the 210's for when the shiny new has worn off and you decide to up the ante later on. Probably about 8-10 average numbers difference below the torque peak between those 2 anyways. All depends on what and where you want to maximize average power production, is all. And only the OP can decide what he truly wants to achieve here.

Can't even hardly partially disagree with some points(or add another relevant perspective?) while simultaneously agreeing with anyone of "significant stature" around here without undies getting all bunched up.