CamKing

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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Stan Weiss
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CamKing

Post by Stan Weiss » Sat May 19, 2018 10:02 pm

Stan Weiss wrote: ↑
Sat May 19, 2018 2:28 pm
Some of us are still looking for that 20 lost HP. :lol:

Stan


CamKing wrote: ↑
Sat May 19, 2018 2:38 pm
Well, if the 195cc heads are Brodix-8, Canfield, Competition Products , Ported Dart 180's, or Ported Edelbrock 185's, the single pattern cam alone, will cost at least 20hp by 5,800rpm.

Stan Weiss wrote: ↑
Sat May 19, 2018 3:22 pm
Mike,
I am just trying to understand what you are saying. You said that DV's cam would peak @ 5400 RPM and be down 20 HP. Now you are talking about 5800 RPM. Does this mean that you cam will peak at a higher RPM or that it will peak at the same RPM and hold on longer or ?????

Stan

CamKing wrote: ↑
Sat May 19, 2018 3:22 pm
I'm saying that the single pattern cam, with the heads I listed, will fall off sooner after peak HP. You normally turn an engine 400-600 RPM past peak HP, for a street/strip application. The single pattern isn't the only potential problem, it's just one that could be improved on.

================

Mike,
Since the thread was locked before I could post. I just wanted to Thank You for answering my questions and being able to have a dialog in the midst of that .......

Stan
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Re: CamKing

Post by Warp Speed » Sat May 19, 2018 10:18 pm

=D>

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Re: CamKing

Post by digger » Sun May 20, 2018 12:31 am

sometimes it seems like everyone thinks that everyone else wants an engine for the same application or purpose as that they themselves want.

the biggest issue seems to be knowing what someone wants, i mean what they actually want not what they think they want and then defining it as something that can be defined or measured against.

the cam wont be the same for all applications

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Re: CamKing

Post by cuisinartvette » Sun May 20, 2018 12:48 am

or trying to decipher if their customer does truly want what they say.

:internet: put a stage 3.5 in I did. :lol:

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Re: CamKing

Post by Frankshaft » Sun May 20, 2018 10:05 am

digger wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 12:31 am
sometimes it seems like everyone thinks that everyone else wants an engine for the same application or purpose as that they themselves want.

the biggest issue seems to be knowing what someone wants, i mean what they actually want not what they think they want and then defining it as something that can be defined or measured against.

the cam wont be the same for all applications
This!! Very well said. I started typing out a long winded reply in the other thread pointing this out, but deleted it. I could go on and on, with real experience from dozens of examples, but won't. But it is so true.

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Re: CamKing

Post by Walter R. Malik » Sun May 20, 2018 10:11 am

digger wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 12:31 am
sometimes it seems like everyone thinks that everyone else wants an engine for the same application or purpose as that they themselves want.

the biggest issue seems to be knowing what someone wants, i mean what they actually want not what they think they want and then defining it as something that can be defined or measured against.

the cam wont be the same for all applications
This is what I witness everyday.
Customers usually ALL want different type results from the engine build they are contemplating.

Trying to get inside their head to give them what THEY want, (and not what the masses would probably prescribe), becomes a major part of their satisfaction in the end.
http://www.rmcompetition.com
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Re: CamKing

Post by mekilljoydammit » Sun May 20, 2018 10:38 am

Half joking - I wonder if part of Mike's success is often having customers with a much better than average clue what they're looking for.

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Re: CamKing

Post by CamKing » Sun May 20, 2018 1:08 pm

Stan Weiss wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 10:02 pm
Stan Weiss wrote: ↑
Sat May 19, 2018 2:28 pm
Some of us are still looking for that 20 lost HP. :lol:

Stan


CamKing wrote: ↑
Sat May 19, 2018 2:38 pm
Well, if the 195cc heads are Brodix-8, Canfield, Competition Products , Ported Dart 180's, or Ported Edelbrock 185's, the single pattern cam alone, will cost at least 20hp by 5,800rpm.

Stan Weiss wrote: ↑
Sat May 19, 2018 3:22 pm
Mike,
I am just trying to understand what you are saying. You said that DV's cam would peak @ 5400 RPM and be down 20 HP. Now you are talking about 5800 RPM. Does this mean that you cam will peak at a higher RPM or that it will peak at the same RPM and hold on longer or ?????

Stan

CamKing wrote: ↑
Sat May 19, 2018 3:22 pm
I'm saying that the single pattern cam, with the heads I listed, will fall off sooner after peak HP. You normally turn an engine 400-600 RPM past peak HP, for a street/strip application. The single pattern isn't the only potential problem, it's just one that could be improved on.

================

Mike,
Since the thread was locked before I could post. I just wanted to Thank You for answering my questions and being able to have a dialog in the midst of that .......

Stan
I have a lot of respect for you, so I try and answer your questions, when I can.
I also have a lot of respect for DV, I just don't always agree with him. he came by and showed me his new cam selection software, and there's a few things with it, I don't agree with.
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Re: CamKing

Post by CamKing » Sun May 20, 2018 1:23 pm

mekilljoydammit wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 10:38 am
Half joking - I wonder if part of Mike's success is often having customers with a much better than average clue what they're looking for.
The more you know about what you want the engine to do, the more I can help.
You wouldn't believe the number of cam request forms I get, where they leave out the RPM information(Max HP RPM, Max engine RPM, Stall speed, RPM off the corner).

They don't really need to have a better then average clue, they just need to be willing to learn. When I make a cam change, I want them to know why I made that change, so if it works, they know why, and if it doesn't work, they can tall me what was wrong with my thinking.
Mike Jones
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Re: CamKing

Post by CamKing » Sun May 20, 2018 1:45 pm

digger wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 12:31 am
sometimes it seems like everyone thinks that everyone else wants an engine for the same application or purpose as that they themselves want.

the biggest issue seems to be knowing what someone wants, i mean what they actually want not what they think they want and then defining it as something that can be defined or measured against.

the cam wont be the same for all applications
That's the hardest part of my job.
Designing the cams for 3 Indy 500 winners, is much easier then figuring out what somebody wants for their street strip engine.

I just talked to one of my customers, about one of his customers. His customer had him building a SBF with a short stroke, for drag racing with up to a 300 shot of NO2. I designed the cam for the application, and before the wheels ever turned on the car, the customer hated the cam. According to him, it sounded like it was way down on power. The engine builder had to pull the cam out of the engine, and have me cam dr it, to make sure it was ground correctly. The engine builder had to degree it in, and double check, to make sure it was in correctly. They start it back up, and still aren't happy. The engine builder calls me on the weekend, so I run over to the shop, where the car's at. I have them start it up. It sounds perfect to me. I asked what was wrong with the sound, and they said it sounded down on power. I said, does it not accelerate quickly, and they said, no that's not a problem. I told them to run it, and get back to me. They were still not happy, and wanted the cam changed, without ever running. The engine builder had to go out on a limb, and talk them into running it. So far, they've raced it twice, and won twice. They haven't even put the NO2 to it yet. They are now happy as hell, and they almost never ran it, just because it idled too smoothly for their liking.
Mike Jones
Jones Cam Designs
Denver, NC
jonescams@bellsouth.net
http://www.jonescams.com
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Re: CamKing

Post by Carnut1 » Sun May 20, 2018 1:57 pm

I like that story, just wait till they hit the switch.
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Re: CamKing

Post by Casper393W » Sun May 20, 2018 3:10 pm

I have ran into that very issue before... The year we won the PTRA Performance Street Championship... The rules of the class allowed engines under 335ci to run a single .065 nitrous jet/ or you could run N/A Small block up to 420 CI. we were the smallest engine in the class at only 284" at the time... One of our top competitors had a 331 SBF with worked over AFR 225 heads.. 12.5 to 1 compression with a big single plane intake... The engine was a top notch piece...built by S.V. that is his initials. That engine sounded like a pro-mod... So when we get to the track with our little 2V mod motor.... It sounded very tame beside this Fox body.. To be honest you couldn't hear it for that 331....

This was the first race of the year and it was a exhibition race.... The owner/driver of the Car was talking major junk about my little Mod Motor... I told him I have $200 in my pocket that I will gap you! I didn't know what what happen but I was confident in my Engine Build..(Keep in mind we only race 1/8 mile). We line them up.... My driver Micah was nervous because he didn't think he had a chance...
The lights came down... We ran a 6.40 @ 107 to his 6.52 @ 105.

It goes to show never judge an engine by it's Idle/sound... Because you don't rattle all of the windows out of the house doesn't mean it won't haul the mail!

Andy

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Re: CamKing

Post by swampbuggy » Sun May 20, 2018 4:07 pm

Great story Andy------any very true. NHRA Pro-Stock engines sound quite docile but we all know the rest of the story !! :mrgreen: Mark H.

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Re: CamKing

Post by tjs44 » Sun May 20, 2018 4:08 pm

This is a great post because I read about so many guys that want a big HP 400 engine in their street car and get the engine built with a cam they bought from a call to a cams tech dept and HATE how it drives.Tom

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Re: CamKing

Post by swampbuggy » Sun May 20, 2018 4:27 pm

I am betting that Randy and the guys who won the EMC a while back, had people present there who listened to their motor warming up and were thinking________________. I am assuming it sounded quite docile considering the very mild cam spec.'s they posted. Hopefully one of them will comment about the sound it had idling . [-o< Mark H.

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