How to develop cam specs

[hoffman900]

I really don't need a computer to tell me that a port is big and slow, or an exhaust side is poor.

Too many variables for a database or formula to work correctly. May get you close, but there's sometimes a big difference between close and optimal.

Oh geeze.

There are never too many variables and a computer can recognize patterns far better than a human.

[blykins]

I think you're giving someone else wayyyy too much credit.

What computer program do you know of for cam selection that takes into account the rear end ratio, vehicle weight, or whether or not the vehicle has power brakes? Or if you need to shoot for a specific manifold vacuum rule?

There's no replacement for experience and a computer doesn't have experience.

[hoffman900]

I think you're giving someone else wayyyy too much credit.

Not even close.

This goes on everyday across a wide range of disciplines. You can take millions of data inputs and with algorithms find patterns. An undergrad stats / physics / computer science major could do this for you.

There is a market for someone intelligent enough to do this. Except motorsports doesn’t pay. If you have the talent, you’re going to make big money working elsewhere.

[blykins]

I'm a degreed mechanical engineer with half a degree in computer science.

There's no replacement for experience.

[hoffman900]

I'm a degreed mechanical engineer with half a degree in computer science.

There's no replacement for experience.

And you record that experience, break it down ,and find out what is going on. Maybe you’ll find something that you can gain on.

[blykins]

I know what's going on, based on years and years of working with the same 2-3 families of engines.

Sorry man, I don't agree with you at all. Magic formulas don't exist.

[hoffman900]

I know what's going on, based on years and years of working with the same 2-3 families of engines.

Sorry man, I don't agree with you at all. Magic formulas don't exist.

Maybe you don’t need to improve your combinations then. If so, good for you, but my guess is you’re not building heads up racing engines.

So tell me, why are your cams gaining on what a cam company might spec? Maybe I can learn from you...

And I’m not looking for magic formulas. I’m looking for optimization. Nothing is 100%.

[mekilljoydammit]

Man, what's the intended dividing line between "advanced engine tech" and "engine tech" on this forum anyway?

If the discussion uses terms like "3/4 Race", "Full Race", "Lopey Idle", "Sounds mean", or "max effort", it shouldn't be on the Advanced Engine Tech forum.

And conversely, if it involves equations it should be in Advanced Engine Tech? Sorry, I'll stop, just kinda funny to me.

There's some amazing nuggets in this forum but man, the signal to noise seems like it's getting worse and worse.

[blykins]

I'm always looking for improvements, but a piece of cam software isn't going to tell me what to try next.

What you're describing is a "log" of cams that have been used. A piece of software can't tell you if the cam is going to be a spring eater, or if it will have x inches of vacuum, with a specific timing curve, etc.

You want to learn from me? Grab an engine, a hand full of cams, and head to the dyno. That's how I do it.

[CamKing]

The most experienced person alive working in engine development that I know of; Hans Herman, does 1D engine simulation as a consultant job for leading OEMs and race teams all over the world.

I don't know how he's still BS'ing people to pay him.
Every project. where we both designed cams, he wasn't even in the same ballpark.

The project he did for us last year was as close as the two dynos it was tested on.

Maybe he bought better software.
Menard paid him to do work on their Indy Car engines, and he wasan't within 20hp of my cams.
When the IRL was only running the GM and the Infiniti engines, he was doing the development on the Infiniti engines. The GM guys were all running my cams. The IRL had to increase the Indy 500 field to 35 cars, to get the Infiniti's in the field.

[hoffman900]

I'm always looking for improvements, but a piece of cam software isn't going to tell me what to try next.

What you're describing is a "log" of cams that have been used. A piece of software can't tell you if the cam is going to be a spring eater, or if it will have x inches of vacuum, with a specific timing curve, etc.

You want to learn from me? Grab an engine, a hand full of cams, and head to the dyno. That's how I do it.

Yes you can. You can record every single parameter, millions of them if you could. Get enough data and you will come very close.

This is how science and engineering work, which you should know. Lol.

[racing97]

What 1 D software do you recommend for a semi-novice engine builder?

I would like to investigate such a program
How about it Jon?

[CamKing]

Man, what's the intended dividing line between "advanced engine tech" and "engine tech" on this forum anyway?

If the discussion uses terms like "3/4 Race", "Full Race", "Lopey Idle", "Sounds mean", or "max effort", it shouldn't be on the Advanced Engine Tech forum.

And conversely, if it involves equations it should be in Advanced Engine Tech?

No. If the average engine builder can understand it, it's fine here. If you want to get into dissecting the math involved in the equations, that should be in the advance forum.

[blykins]

I'm always looking for improvements, but a piece of cam software isn't going to tell me what to try next.

What you're describing is a "log" of cams that have been used. A piece of software can't tell you if the cam is going to be a spring eater, or if it will have x inches of vacuum, with a specific timing curve, etc.

You want to learn from me? Grab an engine, a hand full of cams, and head to the dyno. That's how I do it.

Yes you can. You can record every single parameter, millions of them if you could. Get enough data and you will come very close.

This is how science and engineering work, which you should know. Lol.

Yeah, we're not seeing eye to eye on this. That's ok, have a good day.

[swampbuggy]

Guys i just could not resist comment on this thread ( at least the last page ). Lets go back a few decades to when computers first were used to assist leading camshaft companies in developing profiles. I am sure that most of us would agree that computers have helped at assisting in camshaft development. That being said people will ALWAYS be doing R & D (Research and Development) to get the optimal power. Mr. Blykins mentioned experience, and i agree strongly with his comment. My dad used to say "you just can't bulls*** old experience" and this is true UNTIL one reaches the limits of their experience. So as time moves forward stuff WILL advance and we SHOULD all learn new information if we stay open minded and don't let pride get in the way. Mark H.