Chrysler and NASCAR and Pro-stock

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pamotorman
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Re: Chrysler and NASCAR and Pro-stock

Post by pamotorman » Sun May 13, 2018 8:18 am

Ratu wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 2:47 pm
Can anyone help?

I was having a discussion with a retired engine guy from BMW. We got to talking about Chrysler hemi engines, as one does from time to time. Afterwards, when I was driving home I got to thinking about the Chrysler hemis. I remember the second generation 426 hemi at NASCAR and how that era came to an end. I also recall how Chrysler departed from NASCAR for an extended period and that they also departed from Pro-Stock.

Fast forward to when Chrysler announced they were going to have another go at Pro-Stock and also at NASCAR. Now what I recall is this. At that time, they readied a whole new engine design for their Pro-Stock effort. That made sense, as the old 2nd gen hemi had certain limitations for the intended high rpm naturally aspirated application of Pro-Stock (for one, the classic hemi combustion chamber design had some drawbacks). Chrysler were also reported to be prototyping a new small-block hemi for NASCAR competition. It was not a version of the production 3rd gen hemi as used in their passenger cars of the time, but another engine altogether. That is the engine I am interested in. No hemi returned to NASCAR, though Chrysler (Dodge) did eventually run there, but with a different design. Perhaps NASCAR was unhappy about the engine Chrysler were developing and “asked” them to field something else.

I remember reading about the NASCAR “small-block” hemi but don’t recall any of the details. Does anyone know more about this engine project or the story of what happened to it?
when dodge came back into NASCAR they ran a big bore short stroke high RPM engines. after they won the championship NASCAR limited the bore size to 4.155 and put in a rear gear rule.

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Re: Chrysler and NASCAR and Pro-stock

Post by Warp Speed » Sun May 13, 2018 8:49 am

pamotorman wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 8:18 am
Ratu wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 2:47 pm
Can anyone help?

I was having a discussion with a retired engine guy from BMW. We got to talking about Chrysler hemi engines, as one does from time to time. Afterwards, when I was driving home I got to thinking about the Chrysler hemis. I remember the second generation 426 hemi at NASCAR and how that era came to an end. I also recall how Chrysler departed from NASCAR for an extended period and that they also departed from Pro-Stock.

Fast forward to when Chrysler announced they were going to have another go at Pro-Stock and also at NASCAR. Now what I recall is this. At that time, they readied a whole new engine design for their Pro-Stock effort. That made sense, as the old 2nd gen hemi had certain limitations for the intended high rpm naturally aspirated application of Pro-Stock (for one, the classic hemi combustion chamber design had some drawbacks). Chrysler were also reported to be prototyping a new small-block hemi for NASCAR competition. It was not a version of the production 3rd gen hemi as used in their passenger cars of the time, but another engine altogether. That is the engine I am interested in. No hemi returned to NASCAR, though Chrysler (Dodge) did eventually run there, but with a different design. Perhaps NASCAR was unhappy about the engine Chrysler were developing and “asked” them to field something else.

I remember reading about the NASCAR “small-block” hemi but don’t recall any of the details. Does anyone know more about this engine project or the story of what happened to it?
when dodge came back into NASCAR they ran a big bore short stroke high RPM engines. after they won the championship NASCAR limited the bore size to 4.155 and put in a rear gear rule.
What time period are you referring to?
The gear rule was the result of us racing 10500rpm in 2003. Dodge won their first championship since 1975, in 2012. About 7-8 years after the gear rule was implemented. There has never been a 4.155 bore rule. 4.185 for Cup, 4.195 for the other series.

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Re: Chrysler and NASCAR and Pro-stock

Post by Bos's5.0 » Sun May 13, 2018 10:34 am

Warp Speed wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 8:49 am
pamotorman wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 8:18 am
Ratu wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 2:47 pm
I remember reading about the NASCAR “small-block” hemi but don’t recall any of the details. Does anyone know more about this engine project or the story of what happened to it?
when dodge came back into NASCAR they ran a big bore short stroke high RPM engines. after they won the championship NASCAR limited the bore size to 4.155 and put in a rear gear rule.
What time period are you referring to?
The gear rule was the result of us racing 10500rpm in 2003. Dodge won their first championship since 1975, in 2012. About 7-8 years after the gear rule was implemented. There has never been a 4.155 bore rule. 4.185 for Cup, 4.195 for the other series.
Stop with the actual facts. He needs to believe Dodge is so amazing and ahead of their time that the only thing stopping them from total domination of all things motorsports is the unholy alliance of the other competitors.
Last edited by Bos's5.0 on Sun May 13, 2018 10:43 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Chrysler and NASCAR and Pro-stock

Post by rfoll » Sun May 13, 2018 10:37 am

midnightbluS10 wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 4:30 am
427dart wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 8:20 pm
No Chryslers running NASCAR this year as they dropped out.

What IS needed is all manufacturers run a race version of what they sell in production cars and run the EXACT car the engines come in such as the REAL
Ford Mustang.Dodge Challenger or Charger and Chevy Camaro.
Nascar would find that the fans would come back too!
That seems to be the hardcore fans answer to everything motorsports related lately. Fact of the matter is that changing the bodies to oem production bodies alone won't put fans in the seat whether it's Nascar or nhra. But you guys can keep repeating it and hoping it will.


Considering that none of the people that have made the suggestion do any sort of market research, haven't, and likely never will....I'd say no one has a clue whether it would actually put fans in the seats. You're just guessing. Hoping. Assuming with no verifiable information, statistics or basically anything to back it up except for what you think and feel.
I'm' going to assume that NASCAR isn't likely to change the rules so that they can please the complainers. The announcers at races make noise about name brand battles, but in reality, the racing is all about the racing. The competition is intense. The driver/crew chief relationship and their support team is everything these days.
So much to do, so little time...

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Re: Chrysler and NASCAR and Pro-stock

Post by Krooser » Sun May 13, 2018 10:42 pm

benno318 wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 5:53 am
"Speaking of AMC and Indy, member "wyrmrider" posted he was friends with Barney Navarro the Indy AMC 199 guy.

Anyone heard from wyrmrider lately, I miss his posts??

Thanks
Randy"

had been wondering the same thing... liked his posts, along with big joe
I've seen Jim on another forum recently... I was kind of wondering how he was doing but he seeems OK.

I've seen a few pieces that came from the AMC/Navarro Indy effort when I was at Jim's mothers house in 2014. Pretty cool to see a Carillo Rambler rod made by Fred Carillo hisself....
Last place in the B-main is better than anyplace in the grandstands...

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Re: Chrysler and NASCAR and Pro-stock

Post by Warp Speed » Mon May 14, 2018 6:02 am

rfoll wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 10:37 am
midnightbluS10 wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 4:30 am
427dart wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 8:20 pm
No Chryslers running NASCAR this year as they dropped out.

What IS needed is all manufacturers run a race version of what they sell in production cars and run the EXACT car the engines come in such as the REAL
Ford Mustang.Dodge Challenger or Charger and Chevy Camaro.
Nascar would find that the fans would come back too!
That seems to be the hardcore fans answer to everything motorsports related lately. Fact of the matter is that changing the bodies to oem production bodies alone won't put fans in the seat whether it's Nascar or nhra. But you guys can keep repeating it and hoping it will.


Considering that none of the people that have made the suggestion do any sort of market research, haven't, and likely never will....I'd say no one has a clue whether it would actually put fans in the seats. You're just guessing. Hoping. Assuming with no verifiable information, statistics or basically anything to back it up except for what you think and feel.
I'm' going to assume that NASCAR isn't likely to change the rules so that they can please the complainers. The announcers at races make noise about name brand battles, but in reality, the racing is all about the racing. The competition is intense. The driver/crew chief relationship and their support team is everything these days.
In the minds of the 3 manufactures involved, it's ALL ABOUT the name brand battles! Lol :wink:
And they spend mind boggling amounts of money to prove it. Can you imagine what Ford invested to buy out Stewart Haas?!? It was HUGE, but their investment is paying off big!

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Re: Chrysler and NASCAR and Pro-stock

Post by Geoff2 » Mon May 14, 2018 6:13 am

Warp,
What rpms are today's Nascar engines reaching? Roller cams or FT cams? Thanks.

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Re: Chrysler and NASCAR and Pro-stock

Post by Momus » Mon May 14, 2018 6:31 am

Rollers now, with peak hp rpm at about 8800. HP has been cut way back to 730 or so peak due to the 4 X 1.75" punched plate restrictor.

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Re: Chrysler and NASCAR and Pro-stock

Post by Warp Speed » Mon May 14, 2018 7:21 am

Geoff2 wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 6:13 am
Warp,
What rpms are today's Nascar engines reaching? Roller cams or FT cams? Thanks.
Depending on the track and tire/track condition, max rpm is anywhere from 8900-9350+ with the new aero rules. All engines are solid roller now.

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Re: Chrysler and NASCAR and Pro-stock

Post by Warp Speed » Mon May 14, 2018 7:24 am

Momus wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 6:31 am
Rollers now, with peak hp rpm at about 8800. HP has been cut way back to 730 or so peak due to the 4 X 1.75" punched plate restrictor.
Cup uses a 4 x 1.170 machined tapered spacer, not a punched flat plate type like Daytona and Talladega.

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Re: Chrysler and NASCAR and Pro-stock

Post by Warp Speed » Mon May 14, 2018 7:32 am

BTW, for the All Star race this year, we are required to run our sealed engines from the Martinsville race, with the same 4 x .875 flat plate restrictor plate like we used at Daytona. Unless its a Camry, the pace car will have more power than the race cars! :( :oops:
It may make for some good racing but............ ](*,)

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Re: Chrysler and NASCAR and Pro-stock

Post by pamotorman » Mon May 14, 2018 8:53 am

Warp Speed wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 8:49 am
pamotorman wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 8:18 am
Ratu wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 2:47 pm
Can anyone help?

I was having a discussion with a retired engine guy from BMW. We got to talking about Chrysler hemi engines, as one does from time to time. Afterwards, when I was driving home I got to thinking about the Chrysler hemis. I remember the second generation 426 hemi at NASCAR and how that era came to an end. I also recall how Chrysler departed from NASCAR for an extended period and that they also departed from Pro-Stock.

Fast forward to when Chrysler announced they were going to have another go at Pro-Stock and also at NASCAR. Now what I recall is this. At that time, they readied a whole new engine design for their Pro-Stock effort. That made sense, as the old 2nd gen hemi had certain limitations for the intended high rpm naturally aspirated application of Pro-Stock (for one, the classic hemi combustion chamber design had some drawbacks). Chrysler were also reported to be prototyping a new small-block hemi for NASCAR competition. It was not a version of the production 3rd gen hemi as used in their passenger cars of the time, but another engine altogether. That is the engine I am interested in. No hemi returned to NASCAR, though Chrysler (Dodge) did eventually run there, but with a different design. Perhaps NASCAR was unhappy about the engine Chrysler were developing and “asked” them to field something else.

I remember reading about the NASCAR “small-block” hemi but don’t recall any of the details. Does anyone know more about this engine project or the story of what happened to it?
when dodge came back into NASCAR they ran a big bore short stroke high RPM engines. after they won the championship NASCAR limited the bore size to 4.155 and put in a rear gear rule.
What time period are you referring to?
The gear rule was the result of us racing 10500rpm in 2003. Dodge won their first championship since 1975, in 2012. About 7-8 years after the gear rule was implemented. There has never been a 4.155 bore rule. 4.185 for Cup, 4.195 for the other series.
it was 2001 when ray ran the team. maybe dodge did not win the championship but won some big races i believe that no chevy block could be bored to 4.185 till the RO-7 because of bore spacing

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Re: Chrysler and NASCAR and Pro-stock

Post by Warp Speed » Mon May 14, 2018 9:43 am

pamotorman wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 8:53 am
Warp Speed wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 8:49 am
pamotorman wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 8:18 am

when dodge came back into NASCAR they ran a big bore short stroke high RPM engines. after they won the championship NASCAR limited the bore size to 4.155 and put in a rear gear rule.
What time period are you referring to?
The gear rule was the result of us racing 10500rpm in 2003. Dodge won their first championship since 1975, in 2012. About 7-8 years after the gear rule was implemented. There has never been a 4.155 bore rule. 4.185 for Cup, 4.195 for the other series.
it was 2001 when ray ran the team. maybe dodge did not win the championship but won some big races i believe that no chevy block could be bored to 4.185 till the RO-7 because of bore spacing
We ran our SB2s that big. The 4.5 bore space just gave an advantage in cooling, by having non-siamesed cylinders and still be able to run that large of bore. Even with todays 4.5 bore space on all engines, max bore is limited to around 4.195 depending on casting, due to the water jackets between the cylinders. I don't ever remember a 4.155 bore rule but...........?
The Dodge teams were never the kings of the high rpm era. It started with the Penske Ford's, and ended with us! 8) :D

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Re: Chrysler and NASCAR and Pro-stock

Post by rfoll » Mon May 14, 2018 10:20 am

Warp, I was talking about watching the races. I'm a hard core GM/Chevy guy, but I could care less what the car nameplate is. I'm sure The announcer, many fans, and especially the current 3 brands are all about the logo on the car, but when the flag drops it's all about winning. I'm pretty sure the drivers are more concerned with winning than the nameplate of the manufacturer, and they will jump ship in a heartbeat if the opportunity to win more races presents itself with another team.
So much to do, so little time...

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Re: Chrysler and NASCAR and Pro-stock

Post by pamotorman » Mon May 14, 2018 12:16 pm

when NASCAR started in the 50s it was car name based fans. the fans wore chevy ford etc tee shirts not drivers names. NASCAR found out they could make more money selling stuff with the driver name so it switched to driver fan base racing. the reason dale sr was so popular he stayed with chevy the whole time.

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