cast dart 165cc test head for novice

[GARY C]

hi guys,
been tinkering with this cast head,thin down the guide slightly
i opened the Pinch from 0.980'' to 1.02''
MCSA was 1.91'' now 1.98'' did not factor in corner radius
IS CORNER RADIUS MEASURING IMPORTANT?????
layed down SSR approx 0.020'' and widened at the apex,
i found it difficult to get comfortable trying to shape SSR,i have a reverse cone carbide but struggled,i used a long shank cone shape bit then emery taped to try and shape a bit,practice yes i understand.any tips guys??
i still have not flowed the as cast port,have not flowed the exhaust yet either,hopefully on the weekend.
USING A FLOW WAND,piece of string on a piece of wire,i want to share my observations from today on the bench.
1/ At any depression and lift (.100'' - .650'' ) lift, string remains stable on the floor of the port over the SSR and past the valve into the chamber area.
2/ ROOF - ALL DEPRESSIONS
string is pushed towards the valve and does not go near the guide boss.
3/ MIDDLE OF PORT - ALL DEPRESSIONS,
divider wall-stable
pushrod side-stable
mid-port string bounces up-down,side to side it looks violent but it is not noisy.
NOW THE BIG ONE-
i have been having trouble keeping clay on the divider it gets sucked in,
i persevered and could get it to 15''
the software has parameters for correction of no radius,clay,inlet guide,intake manifold.
reflowed with no clay 216 cfm velocity 401 ft/sec at apex SSR
reflowed with clay at 5'',10'',15'' software corrects 232 cfm i did not check velocity,
the port sounded smoother,is this normal to gain from a clay radius ????
i retested 3 x times same result.
i am excited but curious any thoughts guys??
i sent an e-mail to jamesons equipment to see if they will send to australia i am looking for inlet radius guides,flow balls,valve opening tool,exhaust pipes.
any other companies worth checking out ?
thanks in advance for any feedback

steve c

In regards to flowballs, wands and strings, your going to hear a lot about them but good luck finding anyone that can tell you what they are telling you, in most cases you can not repeat the effect of the aperatous that you stick in the port. The best use I have found for flowballs is to measure chamber clearance around the valve. As shown in this thread.
https://www.speed-talk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=46308

On your clay if you roll out a log of a 1/2" or better in diameter and long enough to be bent around the port opening you can make one that can be removed and kept in tact so you can make sure it don't effect future testing. I like to keep that as consistent as possible, if I take my head to be verified by someone else I leave that intake so the test is more repeatable. Here is one of mine, it overlaps the valve cover rail to prevent it from sliding as it warms up and you can better shape it with wet fingers.

[B Original]

Travis Fultz at D&J performance he's a legend in the local dirt tracks he has 9 super stock cars who he builds the engines for that finish top three every week and have championships at 5 local tracks

Did you want me to say Steve Dulcich, David vizard, Chad. Spiere or Tony Sizemore (Tony said you taught him everything you know)

[ProPower engines]

Interestingly a serdie multi angle cutter looks surprisingly like a radius, this is a 167 cc head that pro top line did in the mid to late 90's as a stock replacement, the cutter was designed for stock type classes where porting is not allowed and is usually used in conjunction with a bowl hog cutter, testing done to develop it showed more power with no back cut on the valve which also reduces flow on the bench.

These had a 2.055/1.6 valve because I had an old set laying around and with what I call a clean up port job flowed around 240 at .500 lift and stayed there, worked good with a 262 hyd flat cam and 1.6 rocker.
Sorry all I have is a cpl of flip phone photos.

They were very well made heads for a stock replacement head. is that a 12401 part # ??
I have used 100's of those heads but the current head Dart sells as a 165 runner combines the improved vortec chamber design and with some machining with the right cutters they work very well
the Top line heads that were in the 200 + runner used very nicely designed seats with a generous radius on the exhaust which helped a ton.

FYI those cutters are still available from Newan if you want the numbers I have them.
I got them from steve at south west Speed machine back during the transition period when Comp bought out top line.
I met him at a trade show and he was more then willing to get me the cutter #'s then to promote the use of them for guys that were buying lots of heads back in their hay day

[GARY C]

Interestingly a serdie multi angle cutter looks surprisingly like a radius, this is a 167 cc head that pro top line did in the mid to late 90's as a stock replacement, the cutter was designed for stock type classes where porting is not allowed and is usually used in conjunction with a bowl hog cutter, testing done to develop it showed more power with no back cut on the valve which also reduces flow on the bench.

These had a 2.055/1.6 valve because I had an old set laying around and with what I call a clean up port job flowed around 240 at .500 lift and stayed there, worked good with a 262 hyd flat cam and 1.6 rocker.
Sorry all I have is a cpl of flip phone photos.

They were very well made heads for a stock replacement head. is that a 12401 part # ??
I have used 100's of those heads but the current head Dart sells as a 165 runner combines the improved vortec chamber design and with some machining with the right cutters they work very well
the Top line heads that were in the 200 + runner used very nicely designed seats with a generous radius on the exhaust which helped a ton.

FYI those cutters are still available from Newan if you want the numbers I have them.
I got them from steve at south west Speed machine back during the transition period when Comp bought out top line.
I met him at a trade show and he was more then willing to get me the cutter #'s then to promote the use of them for guys that were buying lots of heads back in their hay day

The old Pro Top Line catalog has them as a Pro Torker #223 7694 167t but I know they had some part # changes along the way, Its roughly now the EQ 350I, https://www.castheads.com/cylinder-head ... mca-heads/
EQ also offers the Vortec style in different versions.
I have the PTL 200cc, RHS 200cc and the EQ 200cc (iron) and they are all the same head, after Comp bought PTL and became RHS, PTL became EQ with only iron versions of the head.

[user-29956]

Travis Fultz at D&J performance he's a legend in the local dirt tracks he has 9 super stock cars who he builds the engines for that finish top three every week and have championships at 5 local tracks

Did you want me to say Steve Dulcich, David vizard, Chad. Spiere or Tony Sizemore (Tony said you taught him everything you know)

[David Vizard]

forgot to mention i have not checked a as cast port yet,have not checked the exhaust just wanted to share what i have at the moment.
i checked intake with no valve went 214
with the valve at 0.600'' went 217 cfm is this because the air went turbulent out of the seat area??? thanks

The air in the port is always turbulent.

DV

[steve cowan]

forgot to mention i have not checked a as cast port yet,have not checked the exhaust just wanted to share what i have at the moment.
i checked intake with no valve went 214
with the valve at 0.600'' went 217 cfm is this because the air went turbulent out of the seat area??? thanks

The air in the port is always turbulent.

DV

Thanks DV
After playing with string in Port at any depression the string acts the same jumping up and down, side to side with no apparent direction

[steve cowan]

dart 165cc intake mould 001.JPG

dart 165cc intake mould 002.JPG

dart 165cc intake mould 003.JPG

dart 165cc intake mould 004.JPG

dart 165cc intake mould 005.JPG

dart 165cc intake mould 006.JPG

this is the first mould i have ever done,so i am a little excited but most of you guys probably think its as exciting as watching grass grow lol
its not perfect but gives me a good visual,a couple of photos of the port,i modified the guide a bit more,took 0.020'' off the apex of SSR
opened pinch in width only to 1.02'' MCSA is 1.98''
went 234 cfm @ 650''
401 ft/sec apex SSR
want to flow with intake this weekend

[Scotthatch]

For your first mold you did well ... no big voids and it's in one piece

[steve cowan]

team G and 830 annular holley 001.JPG

this is the best i could do with playdo,i noticed the airflow is smoother at the radius guide,the cfm # went up.

team G and 830 annular holley 002.JPG

i have a few intakes,this is the smallest and i wanted to test with a intake on the head for the first time,i blocked off the opposing runners with foam at the runner entries,i found some very interesting results,i believe a oversize intake on a small runner head giving great # can be misleading.

team G and 830 annular holley 003.JPG

team G and 830 annular holley 004.JPG

team G and 830 annular holley 005.JPG

team G and 830 annular holley 006.JPG

team G and 830 annular holley 007.JPG

team G and 830 annular holley 008.JPG

this is the results and i want to make it clear i am taking this test with a grain of salt,i have ordered a new RPM AIRGAP intake manifold i want to use on these heads,i will test more,and at closer lift points EG- 0.050'' instead of 0.100''.
if this test head works out i will buy another bare as cast head and copy,i have the 327sbc in my car at the moment,last weekend it went 12.80 @ 108mph @ 3650pounds with me,i had the car re-weighed as i had a track audit.
the 327 is a throw together and has as cast dart sportsman 2 with a valve job only,ported victor jnr and i tried my 850 demon carb,this is a true indication of an induction system that is to big,it shows approx 400hp the cam is solid FT 244-252 @0.050'',550'' lift with 1.6 rocker on the intake,110 LSA in at 106ICL as per comp spec.even with the 830 annular it bogs off the line but starts to go once the rpm gets up there,it floats the valves @ 7000 rpm (had to see where it would go)
i did this as a test while the 383 is getting freshen up,
i am confident that the 327 will make more power with the smaller head,airgap intake,smaller cam which i have,830 annular carb,this is me doing my own testing and having fun and trying to learn even though there will be some frustration along the way.
any comments and advice welcome so dont be shy,

steve c

[GARY C]

I did some mild port work on some 180 Pro Topline heads for a friend's 9:5.1 331 he ordered a cam close to yours on a 109 LSA, bigger than I would have chose for his application, it had a regular performer and a 750 DP.

[steve cowan]

Gary,
thanks for sharing,i figure i can make around 420 as well
this thing has a lot of piston to bore,old trw pistons,5/64 rings
stock rods and bolts,like i said just a throw together while other motor is getting sorted want to still be able to race and have some fun.the other cam is comp solid F/T
270xos-8
adv 270-280
dur @ 0.050'' 240-246
LSA 108
lift 510-519 - 1.5 rockers
any advice on what intake - exhaust % ratio to work to ??
i am running 1.6-1.5 stud mount rockers and stud girdle at the moment
i will source some 1.5 rockers for intake.
if the intake has reasonable fitment i will run it first out of the box and proceed from there,i dont want to mess up a good intake.

[steve cowan]

Gary,
i was just looking at your dyno sheet and it says 37 deg of timing
did you run as is at the track?
i am running 28 deg locked distributor with programmable MSD,
i have been told by some pretty smart guys i can do with some more timing,thing is i am a bit suspect on pump fuel and how bad it really is.with the MSD i can take timing out but not put it in.
EG/ total 40deg and retard and curve
EG/ total 28deg cannot advance only retard and curve
i take 20deg out on cranking on startup

[Carnut1]

Steve I must have missed something. 235cfm on 165cc darts ported sounds right. Just bolting on a team g and a carb to that head and 260+ cfm doesn't. Thanks, Charlie

[steve cowan]

Hi Charlie,
I agree 100% this is why I say I am taking it as being sceptical,
I ran the test 3 times and as far as rechecked bench with calibration plate, same results each time left me scratching my head.
On the photo of the laptop shows it lost cfm up to 0.400" which I expected right through the lift curve, and this is why I put up my results as I am trying to be as honest as possible, any hints Charlie??