dart 215 pro 1 platinum upgrade on 383 sbc

[user-9274568]

The experts STILL haven't said what this needs for cross section!

Come on guys, every time we have these threads a few asshats post the same grief over and over.

Why is that?

You don't like the flow bench, GREAT move on.

[user-9274568]

I'll answer the question on cross section.

OP, set your bench at max lift. See how much air it's moving. Place your pitot dead center. It should read 300-310fps. If it doesn't open it up until it does. Run it.

I would also open the throat area. This will help slow the air into the chamber.

[KnightEngines]

Chill boys.
I'm gonna do 1x in 1x ex & 1x chamber for Steve, gonna stick with the KISS principle & make sure he can copy it no probs.
I'll suss out the valve job & stick it on the bench before & after, I'll report back if Steve would like me to do so.

Chad - you're a good guy, you know your sh|t - but you bite too easy, too hard & too fast, wind it back a tad (yes I know how frustrating it is to be called out on your rep without good cause & by someone who can't be identified, but biting hard just gives them credibility)

Headguy - you seem ok, we share similar philosophies, maybe shut up the critics & let us know who you are, can't hurt now can it?

[GARY C]

Chill boys.
I'm gonna do 1x in 1x ex & 1x chamber for Steve, gonna stick with the KISS principle & make sure he can copy it no probs.
I'll suss out the valve job & stick it on the bench before & after, I'll report back if Steve would like me to do so.

Chad - you're a good guy, you know your sh|t - but you bite too easy, too hard & too fast, wind it back a tad (yes I know how frustrating it is to be called out on your rep without good cause & by someone who can't be identified, but biting hard just gives them credibility)

Headguy - you seem ok, we share similar philosophies, maybe shut up the critics & let us know who you are, can't hurt now can it?

Are you going to actually port one of each for him to copy? Very cool David Vizard did that for me when I first started porting, it really helped to have one to copy.

[KnightEngines]

Yeah, I'll port 1 whole cylinder, I'll leave it carbide finished & keep it simple.
Those heads won't need a bunch of work, just some refining.
Some of my best learnings years ago were from looking at the work of my betters in person.

[ozyfordman]

Seems like a great offer. Good mentors are hard to find in a business where secretism reigns supreme. I am very gratefull to the mentors who helped me early on, and still do. One piece of advice Steve, take safety very seriously,you only have one pair of eyes.

[GARY C]

Seems like a great offer. Good mentors are hard to find in a business where secretism reigns supreme. I am very gratefull to the mentors who helped me early on, and still do. One piece of advice Steve, take safety very seriously,you only have one pair of eyes.

I learned that on my first set of iron... It's funny when the Dr uses a die grinder to get metal out of your eye.

[cjperformance]

If you're learning and it does not matter what the subject is, does it not make sense to use any and all means of learning available to achieve enough knowledge to be able to make a reasonably educated guess as to how something will work out?
Im quite sure that there are a ton of folk out there who can make a cylinder head work very well and after some experience in learning how ports react to shape , sizing etc will all have picked up their favorite way of going about achieving an end result be it.
O.P. is keen to learn by all means and at some point will have his own favorite method. Who really cares what this turns out to be so long as he gets results he is happy with. Why wreck his thread with a bunch of dick pulling?

[cjperformance]

Yeah, I'll port 1 whole cylinder, I'll leave it carbide finished & keep it simple.
Those heads won't need a bunch of work, just some refining.
Some of my best learnings years ago were from looking at the work of my betters in person.

What a top offer, Steve will definetly be picking up knowledge from a top quality no ego crap porter right there.
I'd do the the same for you Steve but compared to Tony's port work im barely 2 tenths of a 2 bit hack brandishing a bastard file !

[Warp Speed]

Wow, this escalated rather quickly! Hahaha
Cylinder head guys.............LOL

[Warp Speed]

I remember Ferrari making the claim that they have moved beyond the flow bench because they were so technologically advanced and how they have moved beyond traditional cam development and grinders but they forgot to mention that all their programs were developed by farming out to head developers that use flow benches and cam designers that use traditional methods and grinders.

But even if they take that "information" to the next level via computer/advanced "tools" they still need "information" and "tools".

History documents the development that has brought us modern day information and it is factually impossible to develop anything without information and tools.

Yep, if it wasn't for a flow bench and a pitot tube we would still be in the dark ages CFD wise! Lol
Try to paint it as you will, but the fact remains, a cylinder head can be developed without a pitot tube, and without a flow bench for that matter. You would be surprised at the amount of successful port designs that are in use today, that were never flowed by the original producer! FACT!

But enough mucking up the guys thread, I think better advise would have been some cross sectional recommendations for what he is trying to accomplish. Its not rocket science.......
JMO

I agree, what cross sectional recommendations would you suggest?

I wouldn't, I'm not a cylinder head guy! Lol
I would leave that to a guru such as yourself, what you say?
But I damn sure know enough about engine development to spot bs!

[Warp Speed]

The experts STILL haven't said what this needs for cross section!

Come on guys, every time we have these threads a few asshats post the same grief over and over.

Why is that?

You don't like the flow bench, GREAT move on.

When people have differing opinions than yours, why do you freak out?
Your not the only successful head guy out there, not even close.
Remember the part about no one knows everything?

[Warp Speed]

I'll answer the question on cross section.

OP, set your bench at max lift. See how much air it's moving. Place your pitot dead center. It should read 300-310fps. If it doesn't open it up until it does. Run it.

I would also open the throat area. This will help slow the air into the chamber.

Why didn't you suggest this when Carnut posted his finned wonder and the speeds were over 400?
Still no cross section recommendation, just pitot tube measurements?
And this is all at 28" ? LOL

[Carnut1]

I'll answer the question on cross section.

OP, set your bench at max lift. See how much air it's moving. Place your pitot dead center. It should read 300-310fps. If it doesn't open it up until it does. Run it.

I would also open the throat area. This will help slow the air into the chamber.

Why didn't you suggest this when Carnut posted his finned wonder and the speeds were over 400?
Still no cross section recommendation, just pitot tube measurements?
And this is all at 28" ? LOL

"Finned wonder" I do appreciate your sence of humor! So it is named! Fyi finned wonder IS a street head. It may not be perfect but it is my first Dart 215. It flows 315 @.7" and 215@.7" lift. They will be used on a 420 ish cube motor if I find a nice block but since I need to prove my work they may go on my 383. Max rpm is 7000rpm. Warp, do you really think the high ssr speed will hurt the performance even if floor flow looks sweet with a string? Thanks, Charlie

[steve cowan]

just want to thank everyone who had input,yes tony has offered and is doing one cylinder for me as he PM this morning with the offer and how could i not accept,head is on the road from queensland to south australia,i am thankful and appriciative for the help.i actually mentioned to charlie on another thread that i am thinking of tony doing a cylinder for me and he said what a great idea.

Yeah, I'll port 1 whole cylinder, I'll leave it carbide finished & keep it simple.
Those heads won't need a bunch of work, just some refining.
Some of my best learnings years ago were from looking at the work of my betters in person.

What a top offer, Steve will definetly be picking up knowledge from a top quality no ego crap porter right there.
I'd do the the same for you Steve but compared to Tony's port work im barely 2 tenths of a 2 bit hack brandishing a bastard file !

craig mate funny as but i know you can make stuff run like a dog shot in the ar:e,meaning running quick i seen what you been up to for last few years,
chad and headguy i dont know what the hell is going on there that is some serious skull duggery but thats between you guys ????
charlie,groberts,newold,b original,gary ,everyone,some great help and advice by all and much appriciated,i have sent a cam recommendation to mike jones to see what he thinks and maybe i can get a bumpstick from him to suit my application,
in the mean time i bought a cast dart head from summit over xmas that i am using as a test head,
165cc actually 173cc intake runner
65cc exhaust runner actually 67cc
chamber 64cc actually 65cc
1.94 in valve 1.5 exh valve
in MCSA - 1.91'' at the pinch
throat 1.72'' - 89% of the valve already
port entry 2.01'' i dont check radius of port is this important ??? i dont know
exhaust
throat 1.23'' - 82% of the valve
1.79 csa at the opening
now the question i have is can i use these formulas with any merit or am i way off base.
1/ can i make the window of the SSR at the apex the same as the CSA of the valve
eg/intake window at apex of SSR measures 2.26''
CSA of intake valve = 2.95'',can i make the window the same size as the CSA of the valve or is this wrong ???? i dont know
eg/exhaust window at apex of SSR measures 1.60''
CSA of exhaust valve = 1.76'' can i make the window the same size as the CSA of the valve or is this wrong ??? i dont know
these heads if i can work this out are to go on my 327 sbc which ran 107mph last weekend so i come up with and correct me if i am wrong
327 ci @ 6500rpm = 1.97'' MCSA
port volume cc = 327 ci @ 1.97'' MCSA = 175cc runner
this is a starting point,i can put up formula if needed but i think all you guys have your own workings.
warp speed and headguy made the reference of porting a head using CSA now i wont dispute anything because i have no real idea but is this a fair assessment???
i have been doing some lift/diameter formulas and curtain area vs MCSA but still trying to get my head around all of it.
here is another piece of information that i found a while back and would like some feedback from anyone who cares to share-
DART - 165cc wissota /super stock head
1.94'' - 1.5'' 67 cc chamber
311 fps max airspeed
AVG CSA = port vol (cc) / port centreline length x 16.387 (constant)
EG/1.94''/1.5'' @ 165cc
AVG-CSA = 165 / (5.168'' x 16.387)
AVG-CSA = 1.94'' area/port legth x constant
FLOW CFM = AVG CSA x FPS x 0.4166667
FLOW CFM = 1.94'' x 311 x 0.4166667
FLOW CFM = 252 cfm
anymore than this will lose hp
probe port for dead areas and fast areas (said previously in earlier post)
fast areas enlarge the port
dead areas fill in the port
i plugged these parameters in my engine pro software at xmas time
327 sbc
11.1:1 comp (mine has 10.3:1)
flat tappet 244-253 110 LSA - 106 icl
as cast dart 200cc head 250cfm @ 600''lift
444hp @ 6550rpm
1.34 hp/ci
shift 7100rpm
407 ft/lbs @ 5350rpm

327sbc
11.1:1 comp
flat tappet 244-252 110 LSA - 106icl
dart 165cc head to 311 fps avg
1.94''-1.5''
1.94-MCSA
254 cfm @ 600'' lift
469 hp @ 6650rpm
1.42 hp/ci
437 ft/lbs @ 5450rpm
this is just a simulation software but is there any merit??

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