Gapless Top Rings

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

Moderator: Team

Post Reply
digger
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1158
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 6:39 am

Re: Gapless Top Rings

Post by digger » Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:11 am

Since the top ring is not for oil control at all the question probably should be be how does a gapless vs conventional affect the 2nd and/or oil ring

groberts101
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1529
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 3:08 pm
Location: Minneapolis

Re: Gapless Top Rings

Post by groberts101 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:26 am

digger wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:11 am
Since the top ring is not for oil control at all the question probably should be be how does a gapless vs conventional affect the 2nd and/or oil ring
That's another good question. I guess I just assumed anyone using a gapless top ring would automatically choose a napier 2nd ring which does an excellent job at controlling oil. Maybe some are opening the 2nd rings gap up too much as well?

Given the whole idea of closing up the leaks by using a gapless design in the first place.. I never open second ring gaps unless tge pistons compression height and ring package has been pushed up closer to the crown. Less piston mass and more heat in the ring package needs more gap.

RevTheory
Guru
Guru
Posts: 3072
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2014 6:45 am

Re: Gapless Top Rings

Post by RevTheory » Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:59 am

If there is indeed an oil contamination issue with gapless rings, are they pulling harder on the valve guides? I can't see it stemming (see what I did there :D ) from the cylinder walls.

groberts101
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1529
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 3:08 pm
Location: Minneapolis

Re: Gapless Top Rings

Post by groberts101 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:26 am

I did a quick search and there have been MULTIPLE engine masters contestants and even some winners who've used the gapless top rings with great success. I feel much better now! Figured it had much more to do with luck since mine usually runs out sooner than later. :D

PS. I bet if someone called Total Seal?.. they'd gladly give you a list of competitors currently using those maxseals. Would be interesting to get their take on this subject too.

PSPS. ah hell.. why stop being a smart ass now. I'll say it again. If every motor exhibited the oil consumption issues that have been brought up here?.. total seal would have been forced to drop that design long ago. Would be common knowledge amongst anybody that knows anybody and anything about engines. No internet googling needed.

It was entertaining I guess, but I'll just continue to stick with what has been working for me for a very long time. Peace out!

CGT
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1036
Joined: Sun May 10, 2009 12:29 pm

Re: Gapless Top Rings

Post by CGT » Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:35 am

groberts101 wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:26 am
I did a quick search and there have been MULTIPLE engine masters contestants and even some winners who've used the gapless top rings with great success. I feel much better now! Figured it had much more to do with luck since mine usually runs out sooner than later. :D

PS. I bet if someone called Total Seal?.. they'd gladly give you a list of competitors currently using those maxseals. Would be interesting to get their take on this subject too.
I was on the team that had the winning EMC engine last year, it had gapless top rings in it, and would have won without them as well. Didn't you mention you did some a-b-a testing?

Warp Speed
Guru
Guru
Posts: 2273
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2008 1:46 pm
Location: NC

Re: Gapless Top Rings

Post by Warp Speed » Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:44 am

groberts101 wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:26 am
I did a quick search and there have been MULTIPLE engine masters contestants and even some winners who've used the gapless top rings with great success. I feel much better now! Figured it had much more to do with luck since mine usually runs out sooner than later. :D

PS. I bet if someone called Total Seal?.. they'd gladly give you a list of competitors currently using those maxseals. Would be interesting to get their take on this subject too.

PSPS. ah hell.. why stop being a smart ass now. I'll say it again. If every motor exhibited the oil consumption issues that have been brought up here?.. total seal would have been forced to drop that design long ago. Would be common knowledge amongst anybody that knows anybody and anything about engines. No internet googling needed.

It was entertaining I guess, but I'll just continue to stick with what has been working for me for a very long time. Peace out!
You just can't let this go until you convert the world eh to gapless eh?!?
I would just keep it your little speed secret!
BTW, you criticized someone a while back for giving blanket statements based purely on what they have seen...........? Lol

User avatar
RAMM
Expert
Expert
Posts: 522
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 2:33 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Re: Gapless Top Rings

Post by RAMM » Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:08 am

groberts101 wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:26 am
I did a quick search and there have been MULTIPLE engine masters contestants and even some winners who've used the gapless top rings with great success. I feel much better now! Figured it had much more to do with luck since mine usually runs out sooner than later. :D

PS. I bet if someone called Total Seal?.. they'd gladly give you a list of competitors currently using those maxseals. Would be interesting to get their take on this subject too.

PSPS. ah hell.. why stop being a smart ass now. I'll say it again. If every motor exhibited the oil consumption issues that have been brought up here?.. total seal would have been forced to drop that design long ago. Would be common knowledge amongst anybody that knows anybody and anything about engines. No internet googling needed.

It was entertaining I guess, but I'll just continue to stick with what has been working for me for a very long time. Peace out!
There are such things as contingency payouts-hence my agenda comment. Many many companies sell products that don't really work-But every product that doesn't sell is eventually not available for purchase. J.Rob
New and improved website under construction.Check the blog for relevant info
http://skmfxengines.blogspot.com/

groberts101
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1529
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 3:08 pm
Location: Minneapolis

Re: Gapless Top Rings

Post by groberts101 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:22 am

RAMM wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:08 am

There are such things as contingency payouts-hence my agenda comment. Many many companies sell products that don't really work-But every product that doesn't sell is eventually not available for purchase. J.Rob
I had considered that too. Money changes everything and admittedly I have no knowledge on how they are structured in that competition so have to ask.

Do competitors routinely take the chance of giving up points(for this specific question let's just assume that gapless rings might have an added advantage).. to actively seek contingency money for recouping some of the engines cost? And do those contingencies go up as a competitors ranking improves?

GARY C
Guru
Guru
Posts: 4042
Joined: Tue May 14, 2013 10:58 pm

Re: Gapless Top Rings

Post by GARY C » Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:26 am

I entered "gapless ring oil consumption issues" in the bing search...
https://www.bing.com/search?q=gapless+r ... orm=MOZSBR

groberts101
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1529
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 3:08 pm
Location: Minneapolis

Re: Gapless Top Rings

Post by groberts101 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:27 am

Warp Speed wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:44 am

You just can't let this go until you convert the world eh to gapless eh?!?
I would just keep it your little speed secret!
BTW, you criticized someone a while back for giving blanket statements based purely on what they have seen...........? Lol
If you can point out where I make full blanket statements?.. I will try to explain the misinterpretations that have been made. Try to keep in mind I type faster than some here and spend more time correcting blurred and mispeeled words so maybe I'm not using my words to convey exact meanings the best way at all times. And ego's.. everyone has them.. some more than others as they climb the ladder of success. Still doesn't mean they know everything about everything, now does it. Otherwise it wouldn't be called competition.. would be called domination. :D

Warp Speed
Guru
Guru
Posts: 2273
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2008 1:46 pm
Location: NC

Re: Gapless Top Rings

Post by Warp Speed » Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:32 am

groberts101 wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:27 am
Warp Speed wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:44 am

You just can't let this go until you convert the world eh to gapless eh?!?
I would just keep it your little speed secret!
BTW, you criticized someone a while back for giving blanket statements based purely on what they have seen...........? Lol
If you can point out where I make full blanket statements?.. I will try to explain the misinterpretations that have been made. Try to keep in mind I type faster than some here and spend more time correcting blurred and mispeeled words so maybe I'm not using my words to convey exact meanings the best way at all times. And ego's.. everyone has them.. some more than others as they climb the ladder of success. Still doesn't mean they know everything about everything, now does it. Otherwise it wouldn't be called competition.. would be called domination. :D
You write a book, but it is purely based off of your empirical observations. No real data other than "what you've experianced". Much like the people with opposite views you are berating.

The pot-kettle thing...............AGAIN?!? Lol

GARY C
Guru
Guru
Posts: 4042
Joined: Tue May 14, 2013 10:58 pm

Re: Gapless Top Rings

Post by GARY C » Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:40 am

You guys are forgetting that controlled oil burn increases power and extends the life of your muffler bearings. :)

groberts101
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1529
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 3:08 pm
Location: Minneapolis

Re: Gapless Top Rings

Post by groberts101 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:44 am

CGT wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:35 am
groberts101 wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:26 am
I did a quick search and there have been MULTIPLE engine masters contestants and even some winners who've used the gapless top rings with great success. I feel much better now! Figured it had much more to do with luck since mine usually runs out sooner than later. :D

PS. I bet if someone called Total Seal?.. they'd gladly give you a list of competitors currently using those maxseals. Would be interesting to get their take on this subject too.
I was on the team that had the winning EMC engine last year, it had gapless top rings in it, and would have won without them as well. Didn't you mention you did some a-b-a testing?
Sorry I forgot about your reply in the daily mix. I will dig up the spec's later this eve.

Off the top it was a brodix headed(I ported the IK 200 heads) 385" deal and I had talked him into trying the more expensive Maxseals. I assembled the first motor build with my fresh heads. He ran it for over a year and hurt the motor, I think?.. he changed cams and tapped a couple valves which hurt a cylinder or two maybe. He lives up in Northern MN and took it to a shop up there to have it pushed to +.060 with conventional rings. Said it lost power(ET) even considering the slight bump in compression that the cam should have liked. Told him maybe it needed more gear for that newer cam and he said the compression was much lower than expected. Next season he pulled the shortblock down himself and put maxseals back in it and went .22 faster(might have been .27.. been too long) than ever before with nearly same everything. Compression with the bigger cam was almost close to the combo which used the smaller cam and leakdowns were much better again. Also said he needed to retune both combo's differently and based it on what the rings alone were doing to the engine. I have seen the exact same thing when it comes to the tunes required. He's a very smart guy and well seasoned racer and I fully trust his knowledge.

I've also seen, not my own, B-A-B testing as well. Conventional to gapless back to conventional. Street motors seem to have the biggest potential gain and is why I use them myself. Started out using them to see if I could find any edge for street racing and continued to use them when I got caught by the man and gave it up for personal family related reasons.

I would say this. IF.. you can afford to take a chance on them?.. why not try them on the street deal? I think rpm is their biggest achilles.. not necessarily cylinder pressures. Unless maybe your EMC motor was having oil consumption issues too?
Last edited by groberts101 on Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

groberts101
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1529
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 3:08 pm
Location: Minneapolis

Re: Gapless Top Rings

Post by groberts101 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:45 am

Warp Speed wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:32 am

You write a book, but it is purely based off of your empirical observations. No real data other than "what you've experianced". Much like the people with opposite views you are berating.

The pot-kettle thing...............AGAIN?!? Lol
What should I base it off of? YOUR TESTING? Are you the all knowing engine building god around here or what? :lol:

groberts101
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1529
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 3:08 pm
Location: Minneapolis

Re: Gapless Top Rings

Post by groberts101 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:46 am

You guys got me thinking about all this hubbub and I remembered a couple more things. I've only done it a few times for motors in non-moving vehicles or engine test stands but it is possible to more quickly seat rings with a PCV valve against a COMPLETELY SEALED CRANKCASE.

Just like a large tube race header(open exhaust) with no backpressure and/or an IR intake potentially affects ring seal and break in.. I have found that the use of a higher crankcase vacuum during breakin can help seal up a motor and more quickly bed in the rings inside an engine which cannot be put under load to properly seat the rings in shorter timeframes. I've also done it on my own personal vehicle on the street with the gapless rings. IIRC, the PCV used was a mid-late 70's 460 Ford truck unit simply because I was concerned about positive pressure buildup with too small an PCV orifice and no ventilation to open atmosphere. Never a puff of smoke. Should have been a good test towards the oil consumption problems mentioned here.

Either way.. as informative as Speedtalk can be at times.. this place is still part of the internet and data and learned experiences can obviously be very subjective. Text is tough and sometimes people read things between the lines that were not really implied.. and other times they don't when they should. So take everything with a grain of salt and do what has been working for YOU.
Last edited by groberts101 on Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:10 am, edited 2 times in total.

Post Reply