Gapless Top Rings

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Headguy
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Re: Gapless Top Rings

Post by Headguy » Sat Apr 14, 2018 7:49 pm

groberts101 wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 3:13 pm
RAMM wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:42 am
The gapless design is a gimmick pure and simple. They leakdown and dyno test great at first but they all burn ton's of oil. Everytime. I track that closely and even on tear down and refresh the chambers and pistons show signs of excessive oil consumption. Also when I switch to a conventional or AP ring power goes up. Gapless is a scam -Even Jenkins tested this and found the same thing. J.Rob
Burn ton's of oil? Lol.. they're probably the same damn ring part numbers your using for the gapped versions. So the gapless design itself caused your oil consumption issues? Maybe you're doing something very wrong if you expect the COMPRESSION ring to control oil?

And unless somethings changed since I last spoke with them.. Total seal just machines them from other off shelf parts to make their gapless design. Same goes for their AP stuff too.. just bought a set of AP maxseals.

And so what if Jenkins didn't like em'? I liked the guy too but I don't gauge every parts choice I ever made or will ever make solely on his experiences. Nobody knows everything about everyhing.. just the way it is because life's just too short to learn it all. In fact.. Kaase, Sherman and many others my brain can't remember right now have said they liked em' plenty good at one time or another for anything but all out full effort race motors.

In a nutshell.. if what you say about oil consumption was even remotely true.. more people would be having issues and that bad news would travel far faster than any good news ever would. Well.. that and I must be one lucky SOB because I've never once found that to be true on more than a dozen sets I've personally installed myself. Not to mention the dozens of others I've never seen blow smoke. Maybe it's time to play the lottery.
Dude, how about you let people with experience say something without your complete BS.

Some of us nobody's have experience doing this for 30 plus years at a PROFESSIONAL level. And when we say something and it's debunked by internet trash. Nobody will learn.
As far as a ring with another ring attatched to it, yes that must be lighter than a single ring of similar bore contact patch. Sorry to burst your bubble but a .025 ring will always free up more power than your 1/16 gapless. And if you can't make a ring seal without it being a gapless. Then stop.

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Re: Gapless Top Rings

Post by digger » Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:00 pm

who has tested back to back gapless vs non gapless for the same axial thickness top ring?

i have opportunity to use either in a street engine

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Re: Gapless Top Rings

Post by Walter R. Malik » Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:02 pm

Alan Roehrich wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 4:47 pm


I do not think the gapless top will cause oil consumption problems by itself. However, if you use an oil ring with tangential tension that is too low, and it requires some compression ring leakage to blow the oil ring out, then possibly. That's not a gapless top ring problem, that's a ring package problem.
I agree with this assessment, completely.
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Re: Gapless Top Rings

Post by groberts101 » Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:05 pm

Deleted.. not even worth the time and effort
Last edited by groberts101 on Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Gapless Top Rings

Post by Walter R. Malik » Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:06 pm

digger wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:00 pm
who has tested back to back gapless vs non gapless for the same axial thickness top ring?

i have opportunity to use either in a street engine
Probably lots of us and a Dykes, too.
Actual testing results doesn't seem to mean a whole lot to some on this forum. Opinions and hearsay matter more
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Re: Gapless Top Rings

Post by groberts101 » Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:13 pm

Walter R. Malik wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:06 pm
digger wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:00 pm
who has tested back to back gapless vs non gapless for the same axial thickness top ring?

i have opportunity to use either in a street engine
Probably lots of us and a Dykes, too.
Actual testing results doesn't seem to mean a whole lot to some on this forum. Opinions and hearsay matter more
Walter, you happen to be one of the few around here who's opinion and experience I trust. Have you run any specific testing to compare the gapped vs gapless stuff on similar builds?

Any pro's or con's that you can share based on those experiences or specific applications?

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Re: Gapless Top Rings

Post by Walter R. Malik » Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:27 pm

groberts101 wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:13 pm
Walter R. Malik wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:06 pm
digger wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:00 pm
who has tested back to back gapless vs non gapless for the same axial thickness top ring?

i have opportunity to use either in a street engine
Probably lots of us and a Dykes, too.
Actual testing results doesn't seem to mean a whole lot to some on this forum. Opinions and hearsay matter more
Walter, you happen to be one of the few around here who's opinion and experience I trust. Have you run any specific testing to compare the gapped vs gapless stuff on similar builds?

Any pro's or con's that you can share based on those experiences or specific applications?
YES ... several times so, I could believe what I saw and I already shared the conclusion; having no crankcase vacuum pump, only a vacu-pan type system.

During entire 4,000 RPM range dyno pulls there was no PEAK torque or PEAK horsepower difference although at the first 500/600 or so rpm of the pulls both were slightly higher due to the pressure in the crankcase not rising as fast with the Zero gap top ring.
Sometimes it can be a help and others it will mean almost nothing at all.

There never was any excess oiling issue either way.
Maybe after some cylinder wear it could mean something but, not on good cylinder walls.
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Re: Gapless Top Rings

Post by groberts101 » Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:34 pm

Walter R. Malik wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:27 pm


YES ... several times so, I could believe what I saw and I already shared the conclusion; having no crankcase vacuum pump, only a vacu-pan type system.

During entire 4,000 RPM range dyno pulls there was no PEAK torque or PEAK horsepower difference although at the first 500/600 or so rpm of the pulls both were slightly higher due to the pressure in the crankcase not rising as fast with the Zero gap top ring.
Sometimes it can be a help and others it will mean almost nothing at all.

There never was any excess oiling issue either way.
Maybe after some cylinder wear it could mean something but, not on good cylinder walls.
Sorry if I missed it. Probably too busy feeding the trolls and looked past it.

And I agree they don't make gobs more power than another well prepared bore/ring setup. But what I have seen time and time again is their ability to maintain a fresher leakdown rate. Motor stays fresher feeling longer. Lots of others have seen similar results as well. And since they don't cost another $1000 more.. that's plenty good enough for me.

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Re: Gapless Top Rings

Post by digger » Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:53 pm

Walter R. Malik wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:06 pm
digger wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:00 pm
who has tested back to back gapless vs non gapless for the same axial thickness top ring?

i have opportunity to use either in a street engine
Probably lots of us and a Dykes, too.
Actual testing results doesn't seem to mean a whole lot to some on this forum. Opinions and hearsay matter more
I always pay attention to real experiences but sometimes it's not clear if it's a thicker conventional vs thinner gapless comparison

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Re: Gapless Top Rings

Post by ProPower engines » Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:22 pm

The way I see this it is the top ring and only the top ring seals the compression in the cylinder when the engine is running and the 2nd ring does not do anymore then control the oil flow to the top ring. and the oil ring does nothing more then scrap off the excess oil directing it to the pan.
Some rings are much better at it then others which is why there is several options for a 2nd ring which are all based on oil control. This is of course on a 3 ring piston.
5 ring pistons yes use multiple compression rings but below the comp. rings the 3rd ring down controls the oil to the upper rings.
Lets look at a napier 2nd ring which in the most used ring choice in HP and even stock engines.
That style of ring would not ever have a chance to seal the compression and run under such high temperatures as we see in todays engines even stock stuff.
By that logic we could just leave out the top ring and rely on the napier style ring to do the full job of sealing and oil control??? I think not.
From all the ring issues I have seen when the top ring goes away or gets broken or what ever serious blow by exists that is not controlled by that 2nd ring by sealing the compression gas's from the crank case

Then there is 2 ring pistons the top seals the bore the bottom deals with oil control...........................
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Re: Gapless Top Rings

Post by RAMM » Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:38 am

Walter R. Malik wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:27 pm
There never was any excess oiling issue either way.
Maybe after some cylinder wear it could mean something but, not on good cylinder walls.
And how do you track oil consumption on the dyno Randy?

Most dyno sessions are between 10-15 pulls for me and you aren't going to see anything in that small amount of time. An oil burner would consume about a teaspoon in that time I bet. In fact I have a 13 pull "rule" that is turning out to be pretty accurate-meaning if the engine develops internal problems they will manifest prior to the 13th pull. If the engine is steadily increasing in power and oil pressure trends maintain from the beginning you are in the clear. I have not come up with a quick and easy way to track oil consumption on the dyno yet. I've never had an engine burn oil on me since I've been in this trade (1994) until I used TotalSeal gapless tops. I don't really want to talk about the gapless 2nds as they ALWAYS produce less power due to unseating the top ring and haven't used them more than once in the 90's. Gapless top rings have some kind of funky dynamic control problem at anything other than extremely low rpm (cranking-sub 1500 rpm) They do crank great and make you feel all warm and fuzzy with the leakdown tester but once you REALLY start paying attention to oil consumption you will see that they DO consume plenty of it. J.Rob
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Re: Gapless Top Rings

Post by RAMM » Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:04 am

groberts101 wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 3:13 pm

Burn ton's of oil? Lol.. they're probably the same damn ring part numbers your using for the gapped versions. So the gapless design itself caused your oil consumption issues? YES this is what my observations are telling me. Maybe you're doing something very wrong if you expect the COMPRESSION ring to control oil? I make and use my own 2" thick torque plates for the engines I machine frequently and can hold a cylinder within .0002" in straightness and roundness on my CK-10 using the proper stone/shoe procedure. I take great pride in my cylinder honeing ability and am probably the best at it in a very large radius.

I don't expect the compression ring to CONTROL the oil but I DO think it causes the lack of oil control that the 2nd and oil ring are responsible for.

And unless somethings changed since I last spoke with them.. Total seal just machines them from other off shelf parts to make their gapless design. Same goes for their AP stuff too.. just bought a set of AP maxseals.

And so what if Jenkins didn't like em'? I have a customer and great friend that brought in the article where Jenkins tested them and found LESS power and oil control problems. I'm just dropping a big name here because it corroborates my findings and my last name ain't Jenkins. I liked the guy too but I don't gauge every parts choice I ever made or will ever make solely on his experiences. Nobody knows everything about everyhing.. just the way it is because life's just too short to learn it all. In fact.. Kaase, Sherman and many others my brain can't remember right now have said they liked em' plenty good at one time or another for anything but all out full effort race motors. Everyone has an agenda

In a nutshell.. if what you say about oil consumption was even remotely true.. more people would be having issues and that bad news would travel far faster than any good news ever would. It has-Google it-hundreds if not thousands of stories of abnormal oil consumption.Well.. that and I must be one lucky SOB because I've never once found that to be true on more than a dozen sets I've personally installed myself. Not to mention the dozens of others I've never seen blow smoke. You're not looking closely enough then. Maybe it's time to play the lottery. Maybe


I've been closely tracking 3 engines with the gapless top ring design and in actual street /everyday driving /track days they burn A LOT of oil ! They crank test and dyno fantastic, they don't exhibit any oil consumption traits on the dyno (just 'cuz I can't see it doesn't mean it isn't happening) and when these engines are in service guess what? They use oil ! Oh and before you attack my cylinder honing abilities 1 of these engines was not honed by me and was in fact finished by a TRD Nascar employee/engine builder.

To use your words--In a nutshell here's how I see it----If the gapless top ring was so great at reducing blowby, emissions, and increasing power, fuel economy then they would be in every OEM's engine lineup across the board. If they worked that well the cost would not be much of a factor. Why don't the OEM's use them? J.Rob
New and improved website under construction.Check the blog for relevant info
http://skmfxengines.blogspot.com/

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Re: Gapless Top Rings

Post by Walter R. Malik » Sun Apr 15, 2018 3:19 pm

RAMM wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:38 am
Walter R. Malik wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:27 pm
There never was any excess oiling issue either way.
Maybe after some cylinder wear it could mean something but, not on good cylinder walls.
And how do you track oil consumption on the dyno Randy?

Most dyno sessions are between 10-15 pulls for me and you aren't going to see anything in that small amount of time. An oil burner would consume about a teaspoon in that time I bet. In fact I have a 13 pull "rule" that is turning out to be pretty accurate-meaning if the engine develops internal problems they will manifest prior to the 13th pull. If the engine is steadily increasing in power and oil pressure trends maintain from the beginning you are in the clear. I have not come up with a quick and easy way to track oil consumption on the dyno yet. I've never had an engine burn oil on me since I've been in this trade (1994) until I used TotalSeal gapless tops. I don't really want to talk about the gapless 2nds as they ALWAYS produce less power due to unseating the top ring and haven't used them more than once in the 90's. Gapless top rings have some kind of funky dynamic control problem at anything other than extremely low rpm (cranking-sub 1500 rpm) They do crank great and make you feel all warm and fuzzy with the leakdown tester but once you REALLY start paying attention to oil consumption you will see that they DO consume plenty of it. J.Rob
The seconds and oil rings were never changed throughout all the tests.
The pistons were never even taken fully out of the bore as they were simply pushed-up enough to change the top rings - A,B,A,B tests. The ring package on that small block Ford engine is, .043" - 1.5mm - 4mm.
There were no scientific ways to determine oil consumption as it was simply observations of certain parameters like;
1. On a simple dipstick there was no change after all the runs with each of whatever ring set-up.
2. While changing top rings, the heads needed to be removed and there was no obvious oil build-up or washing on the chamber surfaces or piston crowns.
3. The headers were almost white inside with no trace at of oil after all the separate iterations.

To me this simply means that no EXCESS oil was being consumed and whatever small amount of oil may have been consumed was being completely burned during the process.

If someone has too low tangential pressure oil ring or 2nd ring for using a zero-gap top ring and is relying on any top ring blow-by to control the oil then a Zero gap top ring would certainly exhibit an issue.

I have never made any exclamation that zero-gap top rings show any continuous power increase or better mileage.
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Re: Gapless Top Rings

Post by GARY C » Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:41 pm

RAMM wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:04 am
groberts101 wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 3:13 pm

Burn ton's of oil? Lol.. they're probably the same damn ring part numbers your using for the gapped versions. So the gapless design itself caused your oil consumption issues? YES this is what my observations are telling me. Maybe you're doing something very wrong if you expect the COMPRESSION ring to control oil? I make and use my own 2" thick torque plates for the engines I machine frequently and can hold a cylinder within .0002" in straightness and roundness on my CK-10 using the proper stone/shoe procedure. I take great pride in my cylinder honeing ability and am probably the best at it in a very large radius.

I don't expect the compression ring to CONTROL the oil but I DO think it causes the lack of oil control that the 2nd and oil ring are responsible for.

And unless somethings changed since I last spoke with them.. Total seal just machines them from other off shelf parts to make their gapless design. Same goes for their AP stuff too.. just bought a set of AP maxseals.

And so what if Jenkins didn't like em'? I have a customer and great friend that brought in the article where Jenkins tested them and found LESS power and oil control problems. I'm just dropping a big name here because it corroborates my findings and my last name ain't Jenkins. I liked the guy too but I don't gauge every parts choice I ever made or will ever make solely on his experiences. Nobody knows everything about everyhing.. just the way it is because life's just too short to learn it all. In fact.. Kaase, Sherman and many others my brain can't remember right now have said they liked em' plenty good at one time or another for anything but all out full effort race motors. Everyone has an agenda

In a nutshell.. if what you say about oil consumption was even remotely true.. more people would be having issues and that bad news would travel far faster than any good news ever would. It has-Google it-hundreds if not thousands of stories of abnormal oil consumption.Well.. that and I must be one lucky SOB because I've never once found that to be true on more than a dozen sets I've personally installed myself. Not to mention the dozens of others I've never seen blow smoke. You're not looking closely enough then. Maybe it's time to play the lottery. Maybe


I've been closely tracking 3 engines with the gapless top ring design and in actual street /everyday driving /track days they burn A LOT of oil ! They crank test and dyno fantastic, they don't exhibit any oil consumption traits on the dyno (just 'cuz I can't see it doesn't mean it isn't happening) and when these engines are in service guess what? They use oil ! Oh and before you attack my cylinder honing abilities 1 of these engines was not honed by me and was in fact finished by a TRD Nascar employee/engine builder.

To use your words--In a nutshell here's how I see it----If the gapless top ring was so great at reducing blowby, emissions, and increasing power, fuel economy then they would be in every OEM's engine lineup across the board. If they worked that well the cost would not be much of a factor. Why don't the OEM's use them? J.Rob
Thats interesting, I have never seen any long term tests that would show oil consumption and the published power gains are so small I don't think the extra cost per power is justified.
Some claim that with a dyno mule that needs to repeat and maintain consistent ring seal for testing that the gapless top does that.

I thought they would be beneficial on a power adder street engine that needs a bigger gap when under heavy boost or nitrous but less for normal driving but maybe thats not as big of a deal as I am thinking.

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Re: Gapless Top Rings

Post by Keith Morganstein » Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:54 pm

A friend of mine was campaigning Harley’s in Pro Gas and Pro fuel about 10 years ago. He ran gapless top rings so the engine didn’t fill the catch can every run. It didn’t make the bike faster IHO.
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