Seat and guide, vertical mill convesion

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Re: Seat and guide, vertical mill convesion

Post by modok » Mon Apr 09, 2018 5:12 am

There is a lot good about it too. I think the live pilot tool holders, and ball float, floating head, all very good. it is fast to setup all kinds of heads and will earn good money. Build quality is top notch considering. I could go on and on about what is strange about it tho. Mainly how it's overcomplicated and overall too lightweight. It's not really made like any kind of classic machine tool.
Machinists can argue until the end of time about if a dovetail way is better than square, or ball screws VS lead screws VS rack and pinion, different kinds of computer readouts and power feeds, but look at the serti....it's table goes up and down on some kind of telescopic tube things, and you stabilize it with pokey bits that you screw out?. WTF were they smokin? It's never going to stay level if you adjust it up or down, and if pushed hard it does flex. So the bottom end is kinda hokey overall and I guess that's not too bad if that were it, but so is the top end. The shock absorber thing never seems to be quite right and changes as it wears out, the telescoping driveshaft chatters, balance weights seem to need different settings at different heights of the spindle,so can never be tuned in 100%
Machine tools wear out, but they can be fixed. What I have learned from running or repairing one machine I find I can apply to another.
The serti is just going to get worse as it ages and nothing I have learned from it is really translating to anything else.
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Re: Seat and guide, vertical mill convesion

Post by Dave Koehler » Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:22 am

Modok:
I see your problem. You bought the Egyptian Serti and not the French Serdi. :lol:

Serdi Hate: I didn't hate it. Just had to learn to outsmart it.
Modok is correct about one thing. It has a lot of movable parts that can contribute to tolerance stack up.

Modok is referring to the lazer pointer thingie.
Here is a commercial version of this.
https://www.centerquic.com/

I have used one of these for several years.
https://lasercenteredgefinder.com/
I find it way faster than using a wiggler for manual aligning.
Aligning on a center point is a bit suspect. Just depends on what you are hoping to accomplish
Mine is the battery operated version. The only issue I have with it is that the beam could be brighter.

The centerquic style should be superior when considering the human effect.
It would be definitely better than the one I have for centering on a hole or a curve.

The downside to these are it depends on eyesight to a certain extent to line things up.
I have my doubts about the 50 millionths mentioned by the professor.
That statement may be based on the capabilities of a laser without the human side considered.

I haven't gotten around to it but have wanted to compare the laser to my cnc probe.
Last edited by Dave Koehler on Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Seat and guide, vertical mill convesion

Post by Dave Koehler » Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:37 am

Looked through the centerquic info. They claim .002 accuracy on holes and bosses.
It might be better than that when clamped on a solid tool holder.
I did question how good it might be when clamped on things like a drill chuck. I doubt the OD to the jaw ID is tight enough tolerance to be confident about it. I have some fancy, pricey drill chucks and have never been impressed with the runout of anything clamped in them.
I see either style as a good tool to have on hand. You just have to use it within it's limits.
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Re: Seat and guide, vertical mill convesion

Post by HDBD » Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:04 pm

I have tried these. Part of the frustration that made me abandon ship. A Haimer Centro is very accurate and fast enough. Better yet is a spindle mounter test indicator tried in a few places in Z and full sweep. Now you have accuracy and also anger just trying to get the mill to go there and getting it right after tightening the gib locks. Lots of touchy feely. What do you guys think of a floating reamer holder, no ball head make it straight shank. Mount the tip holder direct in the ER25 collet.

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Re: Seat and guide, vertical mill convesion

Post by Leftcoaster » Mon Apr 09, 2018 5:14 pm

HDBD wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:04 pm
What do you guys think of a floating reamer holder, no ball head make it straight shank. Mount the tip holder direct in the ER25 collet.
Why stop there?

Drive a minature double cv jointed shaft from the spindle, driven end attached directly to a stone or carbide equipped seat cutter body

Align spindle and pilot axii "near enough", and the double cv joint would allow radial misalignment with minimal axial movement

So long as the cylinder head is securely mounted, valve guide to pilot concentric, and pilot to holder clearance correct, one "should" be able to create valve seats with run out challenging the most expensive machines

- - using nothing other than a simple but stout digital readout equipped drill press - - :shock:

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Re: Seat and guide, vertical mill convesion

Post by modok » Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:36 pm

The laser centering has a lot of potential.
Remember electronics, computers, and optics have advanced to a point where what used to cost a million bucks is now mass produced and everybody has one. It IS the future and we HAVE LASERS :D
I'm not really the guy for the job, figuring out how to use the laser best, I'm not in optics. I'm sure tho there is a lot of potential ways to improve our basically antique machines if we only knew how. Big disconnect between manual machinists and high tech guys these days. Same problem with a lot of the hobby grade CNC printers and cutters. The technology is there but they don't know how to build a good machine and apply the technology TO it.
We know how to do things mechanically so WE DO, but of all the ways to center two things, optically or electronically, ect, I'm sure mechanically is the hardest way to do it. Doing it the hard way because that's the only way we know.
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Re: Seat and guide, vertical mill convesion

Post by Sparksalot » Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:24 am

Best wishes for his economic success.

Aluminum based "tooling" is a fail. The market won't accept that nonsense.

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Re: Seat and guide, vertical mill convesion

Post by cgarb » Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:20 am

Sparksalot wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:24 am
Best wishes for his economic success.

Aluminum based "tooling" is a fail. The market won't accept that nonsense.
What are you talking about? Plenty of aluminum based tooling out there. In some cases it works better than steel. Fly cutters and boring heads are a great example. The aluminum cutter body dampens much of the cutting harmonics and produces a smoother cut. Make those riser blocks out of steel and you will not have fun changing those on and off the machine by hand.

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Re: Seat and guide, vertical mill convesion

Post by Dave Koehler » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:05 am

Sparksalot wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:24 am
Best wishes for his economic success.

Aluminum based "tooling" is a fail. The market won't accept that nonsense.
I would tend to agree with that IF it was a production plant churning out a gazillion pieces.
Little to none of that happening here.

Splitting hairs here. "Tooling" is not being discussed, fixtures are... for the most part. Different things in my book.
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Re: Seat and guide, vertical mill convesion

Post by groberts101 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:03 am

Hi again, JC. Could I trouble you for a good close up shot of the seats final finish after the CBN coated valve lapping has been completed?

Thanks,

Greg

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Re: Seat and guide, vertical mill convesion

Post by Rick Finsta » Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:14 am

Job shops use aluminum fixturing all day long. It's cheap and it works great. Piles upon piles of soft jaws are out there holding a few ten thousandths every day.

Anyways, a Haimer 3D taster is the best investment I ever made for my Mill and VMC. It is a force multiplier!

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Re: Seat and guide, vertical mill convesion

Post by Dave Koehler » Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:38 am

Rick,
Gotta ask. Haimer versus what other tool?
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Re: Seat and guide, vertical mill convesion

Post by jcisworthy » Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:47 pm

groberts101 wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:03 am
Hi again, JC. Could I trouble you for a good close up shot of the seats final finish after the CBN coated valve lapping has been completed?

Thanks,

Greg
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Re: Seat and guide, vertical mill convesion

Post by Rick Finsta » Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:04 pm

Dave Koehler wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:38 am
Rick,
Gotta ask. Haimer versus what other tool?
Anything that isn't an optical transmission automatic probe (Renishaw or equivalent)! :D

Not only do they allow much faster (and foolproof) zeroing or stock/parts location than wigglers or touching off, but they also allow you to quickly map surfaces and features, albeit they do none of those things as quickly as automatic probing.

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Re: Seat and guide, vertical mill convesion

Post by jcisworthy » Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:06 pm

Found a good video on centering and such

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvkO_If3UVg&t=287s
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