Seat and guide, vertical mill convesion

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Re: Seat and guide, vertical mill convesion

Post by jcisworthy » Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:13 pm

Custom centering cones on the rollover fixture make 4 bolt cap modifications much easier and do not require taking mill out tram for canted bolts
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Re: Seat and guide, vertical mill convesion

Post by modok » Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:54 pm

Things to give you hard time about:
Isn't the recommended speed for that small diamond wheel ....4000+ rpm?
I run a 6" wheel at 3000 myself.

Your ball drive adapter is WAY out of the quill, and that looking like a r8 size quill, that LOOKED questionable to me, although with the ball drive system that may be ok. Why isn't the mill leveled? you slackin? Well actually that's not a real issue, as we all agree the spindle to pilot alignment is all that needs to be as perfect. Why spend so much time grinding down the head size of a valve? quick with a lathe and you can rough in the face as well. No lathe? put it in the bridgeport and use it like a lathe, already have the er32 collet I'm sure.

If you want to "kiss" a seat use a lightweight stone holder with tight clearance to the pilot, a ruby stone, and an air driver. No problem, Where to obtain those things......not so easy. It should be easy, but it isn't out there for sale.

yeah I was wincing when you had that indicator up to 400 rpm or whatever it was, BUT I know some are rated to 600rpm, and it's personal preference. Why not center on the pilot instead of the guide? Both should work, going from the guide is one less variable, HOWEVER it will be ultimately be riding on the pilot anyway.... so that's the real center.

How about an air-float RISER?? eh? I think a very large number of mills use a very similar riser........... :D I could use one of those FOR SURE. just 1" of travel would be fine.

Many different preferences for quill taper and drawbars. Maybe r8 doesn't bother me because I'm tall. I don't really care. Very BEEFY looking saddle on that mill, whatever it is, that's helping you a lot.
I could be wrong but I think a serdi is a 30 taper, and you can get 30 taper spindles..... I made a r8 arbor that holds newen seat cutter, but I'll admit it's kinda stupid combination :lol:
Last edited by modok on Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Seat and guide, vertical mill convesion

Post by Dave Koehler » Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:09 pm

JC,
Clarification on your block fixture.
Your caption speaks of being able to roll the block over rather than change the head tram.
I assume you are referring to drilling and tapping the angle bolt style caps?
Have you whipped up some kind of block to auto angle these or just use an angle finder and lock it down?
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Re: Seat and guide, vertical mill convesion

Post by Hrdlx62 » Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:58 am

JC
You have a nice looking setup going there. A lot of thinking and work involved I'm sure. Coming from a jobber engine machine shop your alignment/leveling procedure is painfully slow. I agree with modok that going off the pilot is the way to go, but as I have found in doing this work for over 25 years there is more than one right way to achieve the results you need. My setup uses a digital protractor system for leveling which I think that's what your system basically is. My interest in your setup is for setting up my mill at home for cylinder head work when I "retire". Using an air float system for so long makes me think that is how I would like to set my rig up. I take it you are planning to market your setup? Do you have pricing? Keep us up to date. Thanks for your efforts

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Re: Seat and guide, vertical mill convesion

Post by HDBD » Sat Apr 07, 2018 10:46 am

How about an air-float RISER
Another big winner, good idea

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Re: Seat and guide, vertical mill convesion

Post by jed » Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:28 am

modok wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:01 pm
I can take .001 off a seat no problem, with the right tools, but seems like the MAJORITY of folks don't know how to do that, but everybody thinks they know how to lap a valve, so you have a true marketable product there.
Glen could u share with us other folks your process of taking of .001 of a seat??

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Re: Seat and guide, vertical mill convesion

Post by Hrdlx62 » Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:36 am

Air float riser? Can you clarify and elaborate? My thought is a very limited float movement especially in the Y maybe more in the X to eliminate excessive table overhang. Some sort of locking feature to eliminate fixture movement.I have the plan in my head, just have to lay it out some day.

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Re: Seat and guide, vertical mill convesion

Post by Dave Koehler » Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:02 pm

HRDLX,
Check my post on the first page about floating.

I took a look at my fixture last night.
It's doable. I would have to reduce or remove the keys that auto square it up to the table to give it some wiggle room.
As far a locking it down. Not sure I need to get too complicated about that.
Loosen bolts up, float and hope, tighten bolts back up.

In hindsight, Progressing backwards I had a Serdi, a Peterson and a WVN floater machine.
I never checked just how well the float and hope worked as far as final alignment.
I just took it on faith, which is lame and makes me feel foolish now. Trust but verify.
Knowing that I now wonder if it is worth the trouble.

Anyone ever done an alignment check on a floating machine?

Seems like a good idea but does it pay off on a V mill?
With the floaters it always boils down to outsmarting the machine, carbide pilots, etc.
Manual alignment would indicate that the carbide pilots would be unnecessary. What say you?
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Re: Seat and guide, vertical mill convesion

Post by jcisworthy » Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:48 pm

Dave Koehler wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:09 pm
JC,
Clarification on your block fixture.
Your caption speaks of being able to roll the block over rather than change the head tram.
I assume you are referring to drilling and tapping the angle bolt style caps?
Have you whipped up some kind of block to auto angle these or just use an angle finder and lock it down?
Dave, I have seen a Serdi float and move .002-.004" it locked down. There are adjustments you can make but the best I could get with the machine I was on would sill move .001 when it locked.

With the 4 bolt cap canted bolt installation, The mill is in tram, the bar with head plate is level before I remove it,

I indicate the block to make sure the centering cones are holding a level once installed and they do.

After that I roll the block over, indicate the hole, find center, spot face, drill and tap.

When done the 2" bar with head plate goes back on and I am back level, parallel to the table and ready to go, no indicating back in or re tram.

There are better indicators for sure but China coaxial indicator I have works well. After drilling and tapping holes, everything bolts right together.
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Re: Seat and guide, vertical mill convesion

Post by modok » Sat Apr 07, 2018 5:31 pm

jed wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:28 am
modok wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:01 pm
I can take .001 off a seat no problem, with the right tools, but seems like the MAJORITY of folks don't know how to do that, but everybody thinks they know how to lap a valve, so you have a true marketable product there.
Glen could u share with us other folks your process of taking of .001 of a seat??
Not much to it. The thing is there is really no dividing line between lapping and grinding. You can take a stone and work it back and forth on the seat with your HAND.. and that's going to take a long time, but I've seen guys do that, paint it with dye and do that to see what the contact is. Plenty of RPMS in between hand speed and 10,000 rpm and all you need to do is make a driver that has CONTROL, which is far easier to do with air power, because the motor itself has very little MASS. Grinding you have variables of the abrasive stone, the weight of the stone holder, the speed, and the fit of the pilot to the holder, the force, and manipulating those variables you can do all kinds of things. There are diamond "stones", that work like grinding stones and whats the difference between that and a CBN coated valve? not much. Just saying that grinding seats is a worn out holders, GP stones, and an electric driver...... is very much a one trick pony, but really there are many possibilities of what you can spin on a pilot. A CBN coated valve fits only one size guide, but a CBN coated cone on a stone holder would fit any pilot.
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Re: Seat and guide, vertical mill convesion

Post by modok » Sat Apr 07, 2018 5:46 pm

Not sure if an air float riser is good.....but one can dream. The mor complex then the more to go wrong, the serdi is a great example of that :shock: Just like Dave said when working on a LITTLE head you can just loosen it and let it center then bolt down again, if it's sitting flat on the table and light enough, I have thought........ maybe we can automate this process?
OR, maybe not. perhaps it is better, as you have done with the digital level, to work on making manual centering FASTER, with tools. Boring cylinders on the AMC c-4, with it's built-in indicator, I can center on a cylinder in 10 seconds, or at least less than 30. That's not long.

Consider using a laser, or building on this idea.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otSjut1iGGk
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Re: Seat and guide, vertical mill convesion

Post by Dave Koehler » Sat Apr 07, 2018 5:51 pm

I can kind of see the advantage to the coated valve for all the reasons you mention Glenn. It takes all the monkey motion out of the deal.
This is more likely useful for those that specialize in a particular engine family. 3 or 4 sizes might cover multiple engines.
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Re: Seat and guide, vertical mill convesion

Post by BILL-C » Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:27 am

The stem to guide clearance would need to be very tight on that cbn coated valve to be very useful.
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Re: Seat and guide, vertical mill convesion

Post by jcisworthy » Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:23 pm

The CBN valves seem to work well as is with my my guides honed to .0015-.0018

There are cones in the works which was mentioned a few posts ago by someone else

Its looking like there will be two cones covering 1.5" to 2.3 for any various pilot top sizes with dead pilot use in mind. Live pilots will work but obviously have wiggle on two ends.

With the dead pilot setup there will be about .0005" wiggle pilot to cone

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Re: Seat and guide, vertical mill convesion

Post by smeg » Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:41 am

modok wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 5:46 pm
Not sure if an air float riser is good.....but one can dream. The mor complex then the more to go wrong, the serdi is a great example of that :shock: Just like Dave said when working on a LITTLE head you can just loosen it and let it center then bolt down again, if it's sitting flat on the table and light enough, I have thought........ maybe we can automate this process?
OR, maybe not. perhaps it is better, as you have done with the digital level, to work on making manual centering FASTER, with tools. Boring cylinders on the AMC c-4, with it's built-in indicator, I can center on a cylinder in 10 seconds, or at least less than 30. That's not long.

Consider using a laser, or building on this idea.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otSjut1iGGk
I have a question to ask, why all the hate for the Serdi? I think you guys just need to learn how to use one correctly.
As far as the head moving when it is locked down, are you really just seeing the spindle drop when the float stops? If that is so you are just running too much air pressure to the spindle or column. We do large runs of new castings and see SFA seat run out.

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